1858 question and safety issue?

[ballandcap]

I have a Pietta 1858 in .44 cal that I got about 4-6 weeks ago. I am getting into tradional shooting by myself and have relied on this site to learn most of what I have since getting into B.P. guns less than a year ago. I have read a lot about these pistols as well as the manual. I felt I had waited long enough and read enough to shoot and load it safely. Shot it today. Seems for accuracy around 17-25 grains of powder is reccomended. I started out with 20 grains of Pyrodex P. The first round I used the powder,.451 balls, then Crisco.
I was a little concerned as I loaded the balls with the ramrod on the pistol when the bullet didn't feel like it was compressing against the powder, it felt like the metal on the ramrod pivot was stopping itself as if there was not a ball in the cylinder. I assumed I would have the same feeling as a normal frontloader that there was a little give. The manual didn't say anything about this so I assumed I would (hopefully) be ok and the gap in there would be ok, but I still felt like it could have been dangerous. The first four shots fired but there was a delay in the cap and the actual boom. I guess... pop, hiss, boom. I knew this wasn't right. The fifth did not go off (missfire) when the cap fired. Had to shoot it again with new cap.
I decided the next round I'd add more powder and felt wads that I bought so I could shoot with and or without. I hoped it would take up the space. Well with about 27 grains and the felt wad over powder it seemed like when the ramrod was fully compressed I might have almost snugged the ball against powder, but may have needed closer to 30 grains, just a guess though. These seemed to be pretty accurate and no hiss, boom. The manual reccomends 20-30 grains of FFFG or equivelant. It says you can use or not use felt wads. As I was getting ready to post this I saw the post about the cornmeal or cream of wheat filler. Not till then did it ever click to me what filler was. As soon as I read that it all came together after I shot my revolver for the first time. So my question now, is filler reccomended? Should I be using a filler? More accurate? If I get a revolver bench loader I assume I would be able to seat the ball firmly but using the gun ramrod alone I can't with the 20 grains. I did try initially to seat the ball a little further in with a regular strait ramrod but no leverage and no luck. Sorry for the long post, just trying to fit all the info in from this afternoon. What is my best bet and easliest soloution to all this? Thank you. :yakyak:

 

[Zonie]

With the light loads, you should IMO use a filler.

You didn't mention how far down into the mouth of the chambers the "rammed" ball was.

Your ram should fully enter into the chamber at least 1/4 inch before it runs out of travel in a unloaded chamber.
Mine enters about 3/8 of an inch on my .44 Remmy.

If your ram doesn't enter the chamber like this, I suspect something is wrong with your gun.

You may have read that the revolvers shoot best with the top of the ball just slightly below the face of the cylinder.
Using this information, if your ram can enter the chamber 1/4 inch or more then what you need is enough filler to create a situation where the ball is tightly compressing the powder, filler and wad (if used).

I suspect your mis-fire was due to the loose powder under the ball.
Pyrodex P has always worked well in my revolvers (although not as well as real Black Powder).

 

[mazo kid]

I think Zonie has pretty much covered your questions. I couldn't get to my Pietta '58 Remington so grabbed my Lyman '60 Colt just to check things out. Just as a f'rinstance I measured the depth of the cylinder, then subtracted the distance the rammer entered. Then subtracted .451" (ball size) and that left me with about .475" left for powder and filler as the minimum distance the rammer would seat things properly. Emery

 

[renovato]

What you're looking for, for best accuracy, is the ball seating just below flush with the chamber mouth. If you're using less than maximum charges (which is best for accuracy anyway), you'll need some type of filler between the ball and the charge.

Wads will do the job if they're thick enough. Sometimes doubling the wads will work. I prefer lubed wads myself, but more often I use a filler. Filler can be most anything. Cream of Wheat is my favorite, but corn meal or grits works fine as does most anything that isn't too fine or powdery. I find the lubed wads seem to work a little better, but Cream of Wheat does scrub the fouling out pretty well too!

Tinker with your filler and charge till you find the most accurate load. Everytime you change the charge weight, you'll have to adjust the amount of filler, but once you find the formula that works best for that gun, it's simple to load from then on.

 

[Mulebrain]

This is all the more reason, to use a at least enough powder to begin with.

I use 20 grains in my 1851, and 30 grains in the 1860 and 1858. I can see where the powder is, and I know that the ball will seat!

Don't be afraid of ramming that ball home, and it doesn't have to be compressed under a thousand pounds of pressure either.

It seems to me, that with lighter and lighter loads, the powder compression seems less important!

I know there is a bunch of talk about the lightest charges, but I will stick with what I know works!

What is the least amount of powder to make the ball discharge out the end of the barrel :youcrazy: :haha:

I recently fired my 1858, and I like the gun. I will say however that the grip is to small for my hand!

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I'm sorta like Muley I use a fairly stiff charge but 2 felts (make my own out of duro-felt). the top one is a lubed one, then the slug. I prefer to practice with a stiff load as I hunt with my '58 loaded hot.

 

[44-henry]

Just as with any muzzleloader, leaving an air space between the ball and the powder charge is asking for trouble. Though the reduced charges are more accurate, I generally just load mine with full charges and seal the chamber above the ball with Crisco or Bore Butter. The recoil isn't bad and there a lot of fun to shoot.

 

[ballandcap]

Thanks for the responses. It looks like my piston goes into the cylinder about 3/8"-7/16". With 20 grains the .451 will have a void. I will try some filler as well as a fuller load of powder. When using powder I assume you would need a wad on top of the powder then filler? Or will the filler actualy mix with the filler making it diluted in a sense? I have no idea though, but seen it would make the most sense to have a wad then filler. I will shoot it and try to find an accurate load and get the filler amount from there.

 

[mykeal]

I will shoot it and try to find an accurate load and get the filler amount from there.

That's the right idea. And try it both ways: powder/wad/filler and powder/filler/wad. Let us know what you find out.

 

[arquebus]

ballandcap asked:

When using powder I assume you would need a wad on top of the powder then filler? Or will the filler actualy mix with the filler making it diluted in a sense?

I wouldn't worry about the powder & filler getting mixed together. Once the ball is seated on top there's no room for anything to move.
In my revolver I just use Malt O'Meal over the powder with the ball directly on top of that & a little Wonder Lube smeared on the ball.