1861 Navy Frame Stretch?

[bigdaddy0442]

Curious as to how long it would take for the brass frame of a 1861 Navy 36 cal. pistol to stretch under normal use with recreational loads? I am seriously considering purchasing one but didn't know if the extra $60 for the steel frame is worth it.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

Bigdaddy0442

 

[bang]

36cal typically holds up well using adiquate accurate loads. Main issue is impact wear on the back of the frame. IMO brass 36s shoot just fine with up to 18gn loads. Steel frames can be loaded heavier. But considering 22gn in my 44s shoot to accuracy 18gn hot enough for a 36.
First thing is to insure the arbor fit is correct. The frame takes less of a beating if the frame is solid when wedge is installed. Most Colt styles now a days are correct out of the box but always good to check.
Personally I would spend the extra on steel frame. Shop around and I'm sure you can cut it down some. Majority of mine came from Cabela's when they had a sale. But now with them not shipping them you have to buy in or pick up at store so if there is not one close it's a pain. You can find coupons online to get a bit off.
I've made some decent buys at pawn shops.
If you want to insure durability you might consider an 1858 new army full steel frame. Spare cylinder change is easier and hotter loads don't cause issues. Keep in mind that anything above what provides accurate placement just creates crud build up. Makes a good boom and smoke but that's about all.

 

[hawkeye2]

+1 on what bang says. If you stay at 18 grains or under the brass frame will last for years. If you like the brass and don't feel the need to prove yourself to your friends ( ) go for it.

 

[TNGhost]

I'll chip in with more of the same, both these guys nailed it. Keep the loads light and a modern brasser probably outlast you.

If you plan on shooting it a lot, the extra sixty bucks, if only for peace of mind in using it often, is worth it.

I also agree that while the Colts have more romance and history surrounding them, the Remingtons are the better all around for shooting, but it is not like the Colts are junk or anything. They just have more quirks, and require more tuning for best performance.

 

[ZUG]

The cylinder arbor of the Colt style repo's will get loose using light loads or hot loads after a while - how long well that depends on how much shooting you do and your charges. My first purchased BP revolver was a used brass framed Hawes 1860 Colt repo purchased in 1969 and I shot it a lot. I retired it when it got too lose to be fired safely. I now own only steel framed BP revolvers.

 

[sourdough]

I wholeheartedly agree that good arbor/barrel lug recess fit is a must. CNC Pietta 1851 Navy .36 "type" revolvers are almost always good right from the box. Uberti Navies, not nearly as good. The barrel forcing cone/cylinder gap needs to be addressed next (I like .003" or less). If you have the extra money, my vote is for the steel frame as the arbor will rarely loosen from the recoil shield compared to the brass frames because brass is softer than steel. I totally agree with the statement above that brass frames, if used with loads above 18 gr. 3F, the cylinder ratchet teeth will start to imprint upon the recoil shield ring surrounding the arbor base, which will increase end shake with both the hammer down or at full cock.

I own 9 Pietta 1851 Navy .36 "type" revolvers, most of which are Confederate "copies", only two of which are brass framed and I don't shoot them: Griswold & Gunnison and Schneider & Glassick. The rest are steel framed: Augusta Machine Works, Leech & Rigdon, Rigdon & Ansley, and 1862 J.H. Dance & Brothers. I also have two Union revolvers: 1851 Navy 2nd Model and 1851 Navy 3rd Model 4-screw CFS (cut-for-stock).

The G&G and the Dance, as well as the two Union Navies, are models that are/were marketed by Pietta. The rest are CNC parts guns, created using Pietta 1851 Navies and Pietta parts available from either VTI or Taylor's. The parts fit very well to the frames so little to no fitting was required.

I also have a "fantasy" Pietta 1851 Navy 2nd Model Dragoon .36 Belt Revolver created from parts, which never existed historically (but I wish it had been).



Regards,

Jim

 

[hawkeye2]

Love that Navy Dragoon!

 

[sourdough]

[QUOTE="hawkeye2, post: 1687993, member: 466"Love that Navy Dragoon![/QUOTE]

As do I! It is based upon a Pietta Navy (CM/2014) plain-jane revolver that has the "trumpet" or large tail grip assembly (which was the last year Pietta produced them), which some find abhorrent as it is not historically correct (I have photos of original Colts that show there is no "correct" grip style) but it fits my hand much better than the newer (CN/2015 to present) blocky grip assembly. All hands are different and what suits one may not suit another.

The original revolver came with a plain straight-grained quarter sawn walnut grip and round trigger guard. A couple months later I found a grip of European hardwood with fairly nice figure on Ebay for $23, and snatched it up. I also found the squareback trigger guard from VTI which was the last one they had in stock to fit that grip assembly for $22. The smooth cylinder and part round/part octagon barrel/latch lever assembly were purchased from VTI for about $150 (ouch!).

This was about 5 years ago and prices have gone up considerably these days, especially with the folks on Ebay who dismantle revolvers and part them out, asking exorbitant prices. I am always somewhat appalled at that.

Anyway, you folks have a good evening!

Regards,

Jim

 

[smoothshooter]

Curious as to how long it would take for the brass frame of a 1861 Navy 36 cal. pistol to stretch under normal use with recreational loads? I am seriously considering purchasing one but didn't know if the extra $60 for the steel frame is worth it.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

Bigdaddy0442

DO NOT BUY A BRASS FRAMED GUN.
PERIOD.

 

[bang]

Think Smoothshooter has put it best. Must admit I was more polite than I think about it because in my 50 years of shooting I've seen 1858s that the top strap was almost touching the cylinder. Colts that end shake was like a marble in a bottle, barrels with a wedge shape cylinder to barrel gap that literally shot down hill. I will say the majority were 44cal and the condition of some were just cheap brass. Some, especially the 1858s were macho load irrisponsible practices. My conclusion was and still is no brass on revolvers made after 1980 above 36cal at low end load will survive safely longer but steel is best.

 

[SPQR70AD]

I shot 100's of rounds out of a brass framed 1858 with 30 grain loads in 44. it still looks like when I bought it

 

[M. De Land]

I shot 100's of rounds out of a brass framed 1858 with 30 grain loads in 44. it still looks like when I bought it

The 58 with a solid frame top strap and no arbor is a much stronger design. The cylinder axial in the 58's is called a base pin. It provides no for aft frame support. It's only job is an axial for the cylinder.
In the open top frames the wedge hardness and fit, both sides of the slot, is what's critical. It doesn't matter a lick if the arbor bottoms out in the barrel well or not for accuracy or longevity, regardless of popular opinion. At firing all pressure is forward and if the slots ,wedge fit and lower frame bridge support are level and square all will be well for many decades of use with as much accuracy as the barrel is capable of.
I think loading with the rammer in brass frame guns in tandem with stiff loads is what loosens up the arbor thread and eventually allows enough gap for the cylinder ratchet to get a run at and imprint the recoil shield. The reason is when the bullets are pressed in with the rammer the barrel is levered up and forward with no support to the rear but the cylinder face which it is not supposed to contact. This continual unsupported, tangental levering of the barrel /arbor eventually deforms and loosens the arbor threads in the standing breech, increases cylinder play and gives it a run at the recoil shield to imprint the ratchet/star into it.

 

[SPQR70AD]

I think the Colt open top design is prehistoric compared to the 1858. the wedge in the Colt is a horrible design so is the pistol grip. the 1858 with the one piece grip and frame is a lot better as far as I am concerned. thank you for a very informative post

 

[ThreeCrows]

Go with the steel frame. Here in SW PA, brass framed revolvers have no resale while the steel frames have at least some. If you get short on funds and have to sell at least the steel frame will give back some of your original investment. I also feel better shooting the steel framed revolvers and consider them as added insurance.

ThreeCrows

 

[SPQR70AD]

Go with the steel frame. Here in SW PA, brass framed revolvers have no resale while the steel frames have at least some. If you get short on funds and have to sell at least the steel frame will give back some of your original investment. I also feel better shooting the steel framed revolvers and consider them as added insurance.

ThreeCrows

yes with an open top Colt you should get a steel frame

 

[M. De Land]

I have a theory I want to try as soon as I can find a worn out "stretched" brass framed revolver at a gun show or pawn shop to test it on. I think maybe a steel threaded bushing to house the arbor can be counter sunk, cross pinned and silver soldered into the standing brass frame breech and be as good as a steel frame gun. The bushing, it is hoped would be enough larger of a footing to withstand the angular action of bullet seating with the rammer and imprinting of the star.
I don't think the actual cylinder port of brass frames stretch in length in solid frame guns.

 

[SPQR70AD]

I have a theory I want to try as soon as I can find a worn out "stretched" brass framed revolver at a gun show or pawn shop to test it on. I think maybe a steel threaded bushing to house the arbor can be counter sunk, cross pinned and silver soldered into the standing brass frame breech and be as good as a steel frame gun. The bushing, it is hoped would be enough larger of a footing to withstand the angular action of bullet seating with the rammer and imprinting of the star.
I don't think the actual cylinder port of brass frames stretch in length in solid frame guns.

I have a theory I want to try as soon as I can find a worn out "stretched" brass framed revolver at a gun show or pawn shop to test it on. I think maybe a steel threaded bushing to house the arbor can be counter sunk, cross pinned and silver soldered into the standing brass frame breech and be as good as a steel frame gun. The bushing, it is hoped would be enough larger of a footing to withstand the angular action of bullet seating with the rammer and imprinting of the star.
I don't think the actual cylinder port of brass frames stretch in length in solid frame guns.

sounds like a plan

 

[sourdough]

Sounds like a good project. I know I saw either a forum link or a YouTube vid where the guy performed something similar, only the brass "ring" was milled out and a thick steel "washer" was silver-soldered onto that area. It seems to have worked fairly well, IIRC. Good luck!

Regards,

Jim

 

[hawkeye2]

Sourdough I remember that washer fix and it was on a forum a few years back but I can't remember where. Putting a steel bushing in the frame would be a good fix for battered arbor threads though that and/or the washer fix are probably more work, at least for the average person, then a worn out gun is worth. It wouldn't be necessary to silver solder the bushing in place as Gary Barnes (Hoolf Hearted, Conversion Services, Cartridge Conversions) uses a high strength adhesive. He did my new Walker by removing the arbor and reinstalling it with the adhesive to avoid future problems and corrected the arbor length at the time. He states that even with a steel frame a Walker will shoot loose if continuously shot with full house loads. Now if y'all just hold my beer I'm gonna to try 60 grains of 4f this time.

 

[sourdough]

Putting a steel bushing in the frame would be a good fix for battered arbor threads though that and/or the washer fix are probably more work, at least for the average person, then a worn out gun is worth.

If, like Mr. de Land suggests, one finds a cheap brasser (abused or not) as a project, nothing is wrong with that.

It wouldn't be necessary to silver solder the bushing in place as Gary Barnes (Hoof Hearted, Conversion Services, Cartridge Conversions) uses a high strength adhesive. He did my new Walker by removing the arbor and reinstalling it with the adhesive to avoid future problems and corrected the arbor length at the time. He states that even with a steel frame a Walker will shoot loose if continuously shot with full house loads. Now if y'all just hold my beer I'm gonna to try 60 grains of 4f this time.

Gary is quite the guy. And that is quite the load!

Regards,

Jim