1861 Springfield Barrel Patina issues

[Never_Lucky_Rubber_Ducky]

Hi all, new to the forum, I recently bought my first BP rifle, an original 1861 Springfield artillery rifle. I shot pyrodex in it and had a stuck ball. So to help lodge it lose I soaked it in lightly soapy water to help break it free. Couple hours later I return and my original patina is removed in like splotchy tiger stripes. Certain parts retain its patina and others are eaten to a brighter white. I’m honestly sick to
my stomach that I did that and have no idea how it turned so fast. Anyone know how to restore the full patina respectfully to an antique? *Note it did not rust, the old patina was removed in spots to a more bare white. Rifle is in great shape other wise with good metal parts

 

[Phil Coffins]

If it came off with soapy water it wasn’t patina, it could be just years of dirt, smoke, and grime. The Pyrodex is something I would avoid in an original.

 

[akroguy]

NICE rifle. I have a defarb'd repro 1861 ( "C" hammer) version. They sure do balance better offhand with several inches of barrel off the end.

I concur to stay with genuine black...just because. Don't sweat the patina. Every rifle has its character.

 

[tjiann]

Just clean it up and go over it with some 0000 steel wool. It'll even out. That's a beautiful gun. Agree on ditching the Pyrodex. Get some 2FG black powder and minie ball.

 

[Never_Lucky_Rubber_Ducky]

If it came off with soapy water it wasn’t patina, it could be just years of dirt, smoke, and grime. The Pyrodex is something I would avoid in an original.

NICE rifle. I have a defarb'd repro 1861 ( "C" hammer) version. They sure do balance better offhand with several inches of barrel off the end.

I concur to stay with genuine black...just because. Don't sweat the patina. Every rifle has its character.

I really hate that I changed it. Forgive me cause I’m new but what is Defarb? I’ve never really seen anything close to this except a listing saying it’s an artillery rifle(?). But the dawn dish soap I had it in to get to the pyrodex just melted it and now it’s uneven and bothers me. Need y’all’s opinion if trying to even the finish through a gunsmith would be worth the effort. Idk if it hurts its value or historical value

 

[Phil Coffins]

A “defarb” is a replica that has the marking removed and often original style marking added.

 

[hawkeye2]

That's a nice piece but I wouldn't worry about patina. Clean it, patina wouldn't come off with soap. The rifle left the aromry with all the metal parts finished "armory bright" which means polished bare steel. Defarb means to remove all the Italian proofs and script from the gun and possibley go further by adding the proper stamps. You do not need to do that as the gun is original. You won't hurt the original finish by cleaning it and if you are a purest you need to know Springfield never made any artillery rifles for issue though they may have experimented with them. Your rifle was surplused and shortened after the war by surplus dealers for use in military academies by the cadets. The one pictured is an 1863 Type 1 and not an 1861. Was it made by Springfield or a contract piece? The lock will tell you and having a contract made piece is not a shortcoming, some are worth more than a Springfield and the quality is equal.

 

[Never_Lucky_Rubber_Ducky]

That's a nice piece but I wouldn't worry about patina. Clean it, patina wouldn't come off with soap. The rifle left the aromry with all the metal parts finished "armory bright" which means polished bare steel. Defarb means to remove all the Italian proofs and script from the gun and possibley go further by adding the proper stamps. You do need to do that as the gun is original. You won't hurt the original finish by cleaning it and if you are a purest you need to know Springfield never made any artillery rifles for issue though they may have experimented with them. Your rifle was surplused and shortened after the war by surplus dealers for use in military academies by the cadets. The one pictured is an 1863 Type 1 and not an 1861. Was it made by Springfield or a contract piece? The lock will tell you and having a contract made piece is not a shortcoming, some are worth more than a Springfield and the quality is equal.

Does anyone have an idea on value? I haven’t been able to find any comparables. The stock has a nice Whitney arms cartouche that I don’t know if original or not

 

[hawkeye2]

These do not have the value of the 40" barreled guns and I wouldn't dare give a value. In my case its value would be as a shooter as I shoot a shortened 61 and my wife shoots a shortened 63. The Whitney stock is interesting and the link below may give you the answer. Does it have the US stamp on the top of the buttplate? It should have a V over P over eagle on the barrel and the date of manufacture too. I posted about the metal being armory bright before I took a second look and saw it was a 63. The 63 had a case hardened lock and hammer and blued bands (on some) and the one I have has a blued trigger and screws too. The case colors will not be the bright colors everyone expects today but closer to a dull gray.

https://civilwarshop.com/shop/scarce-us-m1863-springfield-rifled-musket-with-whitney-armory-stock/

 

[Conquerordie]

As other might have mentioned, there was no Artillery Model rifles made in a M1861-63 parts during the war. I've always been told that's a name that dealers gave cut down muskets that retain a nose cap and barrel bands. Value would not be as much as an original length gun.
Patina is something that takes time to acquire, and would have just came off with your solution. Was it brown? If you want to age it again you'll either have to rust brown the barrel several times, or use 44/40 blueing and tincture of iodine solution in a humid environment.

 

[Never_Lucky_Rubber_Ducky]

These do not have the value of the 40" barreled guns and I wouldn't dare give a value. In my case its value would be as a shooter as I shoot a shortened 61 and my wife shoots a shortened 63. The Whitney stock is interesting and the link below may give you the answer. Does it have the US stamp on the top of the buttplate? It should have a V over P over eagle on the barrel and the date of manufacture too. I posted about the metal being armory bright before I took a second look and saw it was a 63. The 63 had a case hardened lock and hammer and blued bands (on some) and the one I have has a blued trigger and screws too. The case colors will not be the bright colors everyone expects today but closer to a dull gray.

https://civilwarshop.com/shop/scarce-us-m1863-springfield-rifled-musket-with-whitney-armory-stock/

It has all the barrel markings, no us marked buttp

These do not have the value of the 40" barreled guns and I wouldn't dare give a value. In my case its value would be as a shooter as I shoot a shortened 61 and my wife shoots a shortened 63. The Whitney stock is interesting and the link below may give you the answer. Does it have the US stamp on the top of the buttplate? It should have a V over P over eagle on the barrel and the date of manufacture too. I posted about the metal being armory bright before I took a second look and saw it was a 63. The 63 had a case hardened lock and hammer and blued bands (on some) and the one I have has a blued trigger and screws too. The case colors will not be the bright colors everyone expects today but closer to a dull gray.

https://civilwarshop.com/shop/scarce-us-m1863-springfield-rifled-musket-with-whitney-armory-stock/

barrel markings are all there. Barrel bands are marked u, the buttplate does not have a US marking, it’s a 1862 lock on a 1863 barrel

 

[Eterry]

Does anyone have an idea on value? I haven’t been able to find any comparables. The stock has a nice Whitney arms cartouche that I don’t know if original or not View attachment 315475

I feel the gun is irreparably damaged and you should immediately send it to me. I'll help you out by paying postage... LOL.
Seriously, I'm in aggreance with the others. If patina was able to be removed with Dawn, there'd be no guns with patina on them.
Rub it down with 0000 steel wool and light oil, get some range time and have fun.
Are you using PRB or Minie Balls?

 

[hawkeye2]

As it's an early 63 they were likely using a left over plate. 61model and 63 model locks are identical except for the hammers. All other parts interchange.

 

[Conquerordie]

If you Google the Whitney Arms stock cartouche, you'll see that Whitney purchased a bunch of slightly used muskets in like 1866-1867 and did there work, blued the metal, and stamped the stock. This one was shortened. So it's a neat gun, probably one with very little Civil War Service, but used as a hunting gun, or farm gun somewhere in the country. I'd hate to say it, if it was blued, then when you cleaned it you took that historical aspect away. In my previous post I figured it was just browned patina, not blued. You can try to reblue it, but the original blueing unfortunately is gone now.

 

[dave951]

Don't use Pyrodex in any original you care about.

 

[2 shots]

as stated ... dawn did not remove patina.. stop blaming her

 

[wiscoaster]

If the "patina" was affected that easily, it might have been "touched up" for faux appearance's sake somewhere along the line by some recent owner.

 

[Never_Lucky_Rubber_Ducky]

I feel the gun is irreparably damaged and you should immediately send it to me. I'll help you out by paying postage... LOL.
Seriously, I'm in aggreance with the others. If patina was able to be removed with Dawn, there'd be no guns with patina on them.
Rub it down with 0000 steel wool and light oil, get some range time and have fun.
Are you using PRB or Minie Balls?

I’m using .575 minies and have one stuck right now. The pyrodex didn’t have the juice to form it and sling itz

If the "patina" was affected that easily, it might have been "touched up" for faux appearance's sake somewhere along the line by some recent owner.

nothing about this gun is blued. Maybe it was left in the white if it was a cadet rifle to be more of a parade rifle and range rifle but there’s nothing blues as is right now, before or after soap

 

[acavdragoon]

RUST is NOT a patina! It’s a CANCER! It needs to be removed or converted from red active rust to an inactive black rust. Which is easy to do by boiling or steaming the parts then carding them. You can watch some youtube videos on how that’s done, Mark Novak is one that does a good job of it.

I just finished up a 1813-1814 dated Bartlett musket. They had a contract to make 2500 of them, as far as I can tell they only delivered 1500 muskets. I feel very lucky to have a very nice one!

I basically just cleaned this one up with denatured alcohol and a 3M pad. Boiled the parts and carding them, then wiping it down with Ballistol. I used the denatured alcohol and 3M pad to clean up the stock also, putting around 8 coats of BLO.

Here are a few before and after pictures of this nice Bartlett 69 caliber musket.

Before…

 

[acavdragoon]

After…