1862 58 calibre

[Tracy]

Just looked at 2 military type muzzle loaders.Have no idea what they are worth.One has a barrel .58 cal with a stamp on lock[url] 1862.In[/url] good condition.Looks like the replicas Cabelas used to sell but this is no replica its original.The other is a .68 or .69 cal. percusion.The lock is stamped 1846 Harpers Ferry.Lookes origanal but dont know.Bores are dark but not pitted.The .69 has a barrel around 28 to 34 inches long,the .58 i would guess at 38 to 44 inches long.I dont know much about military type guns but both are in excellant condition.Anybody have a ballpark figure of what they are worth?

 

[Swampman]

The first is probably an 1853 Enfield, or an 1861 Springfield. The later is probably an 1842 Springfield.

 

[cliff mccann]

Jess,the rifle-musket marked 1862 MIGHT be a Model 1861,made by Springfield armory and other contractors.Values vary by maker and condition,but in good condition it would start at $800.It should have a 40" barrel.The musket marked 1846 Harpers Ferry MIGHT be a Model 1842 U.S. percussion musket. It should have a 42" barrel.Values start at $800 in good condition.The dates on the muskets do not match the model number,because they are the actual dates of manufacture.Both of them were possibly used in the Civil War.Wish I had a musket like either of those !

 

[Toomuch_36]

Jess,the rifle-musket marked 1862 MIGHT be a Model 1861,made by Springfield armory and other contractors.Values vary by maker and condition,but in good condition it would start at $800.It should have a 40" barrel.The musket marked 1846 Harpers Ferry MIGHT be a Model 1842 U.S. percussion musket. It should have a 42" barrel.Values start at $800 in good condition.The dates on the muskets do not match the model number,because they are the actual dates of manufacture.Both of them were possibly used in the Civil War.Wish I had a musket like either of those !

Another reason for the dates on the locks not matching the firearm is armory re-fit. During the war between the states many "battlefield pick-ups" were re-fit and put back in service.

Toomuch
.............
Shoot Flint

 

[Tracy]

I am going to bring a bore light tomorrow to check the bores,both guns look like they could be fired.Locks and triggers all work.

 

[Tracy]

The 1846 has a barrel no longer than 32 inches the seller says it is a carbine of some sort is that possible?I think I can buy them reasonable but I dont need them.On the other hand I hate to pass up a good deal.

 

[Zonie]

Thoughts on the 1846 Harpers Ferry gun:

To me, this sounds like a cut down 1842 Percussion Musket.
The 1842 U.S. Percussion Musket was the very First Percussion musket delivered to the troops.
It was made by both Springfield and Harpers Ferry from 1844 thru 1855. Total production was "about 275,000". (Flayderman's).
These Muskets all had a 42" round barrel with a 3 band Walnut stock.
A little over 14,000 were reworked by rifleing the .69 cal bores in 1856-1859. Of these, about 10,000 were fitted with rear sights.
They were used in the Mexican/American War and the Civil War.

There was a short barreled .69 cal Military smoothbore which had a 26 inch round barrel however this was made in 1848-1859 by springfield Armory. The official name for this gun is the Model 1847 U.S. Artillery Musketoon.
IMO, the date on the lock of the gun your looking at makes it unlikely that it is one of these guns (although it is possible that an older lock was installed).

As for the other gun, I don't have a clue.
I will point out that even the Contract guns made for the U.S. Military had the makers company name stamped on them along with the typical Eagle and U.S. markings.

 

[rebel727]

The Enfields have a crown on the lock plate behind the hammer, in front of the hammer it has Tower and the date under it. These stampings are usually kinda light. They also all have the number 25 stamped on the barrel, these are usually pretty deep stamps. It could be an Austrian Lorenz. I don't think they have anything but the date stamped on the the locks.(been awhile since I saw one tho) Usually run 2-300 bucks cheaper than an Enfield.

 

[Tracy]

Where are the stampings on the lock or the barrel?

 

[Zonie]

If we are speaking of the U.S. Military guns the Eagle and "U.S." are stamped in front of the hammer. The Armory name and date is stamped vertically behind the hammer. These names are broken up into two words like SPRING/FIELD or HARPERS/FERRY.
The barrel will have the letters "V" over "P" and an eagles head marked on top of it by the breech.

This V P eagles head marking applies to the .58 caliber guns as well as the older Muskets.

 

[sledgemeister]

The Enfields have a crown on the lock plate behind the hammer, in front of the hammer it has Tower and the date under it. These stampings are usually kinda light. They also all have the number 25 stamped on the barrel, these are usually pretty deep stamps. It could be an Austrian Lorenz. I don't think they have anything but the date stamped on the the locks.(been awhile since I saw one tho) Usually run 2-300 bucks cheaper than an Enfield.

Like this: Click link for larger pic

 

[rebel727]

The crown is in the same place as in the pic but there's nothing but the crown, no other lettering behind the hammer. In front of the hammer where it says enfield an original will only say Tower and it will be a little higher up on the lock. The date will be in about the same place as in the pic.

 

[sledgemeister]

I found some pics of tower markings.
Hope this helps more.

Pics#1
and
Pics#2

 

[Tumblernotch]

I can't see enough of this gun to judge whether it is an original or not, but at least the lock is a reproduction. The Crown over P-H shows it to be a Parker Hale who made the best of all the Enfield reproductions.

I can't go into detail here, but one clue as to whether an Enfield pattern arm was used in our Civil War is the existence of a Broad Arrow Mark, either by itself or in conjunction with a Crown or other proofmarks. If it appears, then there is more than a 99.99% chance it never saw service over here. That is a British War Department acceptance mark and was never stamped on weapons offered for sale to the American belligerents. There are quite a few in existence here, but they were purchased Post-War by dealers and collectors.