1863 Springfield Smoothbore Questions

[jdculpgmail.com]

Hello,

I have inherited my grandfather's 1863 Springfield and I have a slew of questions. My mom remembers him shooting it when she was a little girl. It has been converted to a shotgun by Bannerman or similar. It has been bored out to a smoothmore, the stock has been shortened, original sights removed and replaced with a single bead, thimble added and it appears to be a replacement ramrod, but I don't know enough about what the original 1863 ramrod should look like to know for sure.

It was missing one sidelock screw which I replaced with a reproduction from Dixie Gunworks. It is a tad bit long, as you can probably see in the pictures, so I will have to shorten it.

The bore diameter is 0.642" at the muzzle and is round. The barrel is 33.5" long. It is clean and serviceable inside. No pitting.

The nipple is sized for a musket cap (they are on order). It removes easily and is pretty clean inside. The hole and passageway are clear.

How much bigger than the bore diameter should the cards/wads be? From what I have read here I'm guessing the ballpark should be 0.005" over. I know this is a non-standard bore size and I may have to make my own, but if you know a place that sells the right size, please let me know.

I have read that I should remove and inspect the breech plug. I have also read that they can be quite tight. The grip surface on the breech plug is tapered. How should I grip it to turn it? Do I need to make/buy a wrench to fit, or is there another commonly used method? Should I use a hardwood ramp and grip the breech plug in the vice then turn the barrel? Is it okay to apply a little heat? Was there any heat treatment done on the barrels and plugs when they were manufactured that I need to be aware of so I don't alter it?

Can anyone recommend a shot load for this non-standard size barrel? A chart I found online says this bore size is between 17 and 18 gauge.

Can anyone recommend a ball size? I'm guessing it should be 0.627" and a 0.015" thick patch. Does anyone know where I can buy such a size ball or minie? Or a mold that size?

Can anyone give me information on the stock cartouches? Do they point towards a certain company such as Bannerman who did the smoothbore conversion, or are they original marks for the stock, or an aftermarket replacement?

Do the markings on the breech give any information?

Can I use modern black powder substitutes? I want to use black powder, but need to shop around and see what is in stock locally without paying hazmat shipping fees.


I know I have a ton of questions, thanks for being patient as I learn.


Semper Fidelis,
Groundhog76

 

[Rifleman1776]

It doesn't look bad from the outside. First step is to go to O'Reily's auto parts and buy a little flashlight they sell. It is only about .22" in diameter and very bright. Tie a string to the end and inspect the bore and, especially, the breech. If it all looks good, clean and shoot with light loads. e.g. 40-50 gr. Check outside of breech for leaks. If all looks well work up a patched ball and/or shot load and shoot. Wads should be bore sized. Great keepsake. BTW, subs will work if bp is not available.

 

[curator]

Probably more than half of all the 1863 Springfield muskets made ended up like yours, "converted" to smoothbores. In fact, it made the gun a lot more versatile. Circle Fly has wads for your gun. Were it mime, I would use 18 gauge wads that are about .005 over bore diameter.

If you don't have a breech plug wrench you can make one (PM me if you need directions) or check with Dixie Gunworks. A good barrel wrench helps but a sturdy bench vise and some thick Oak boards with a barrel-size groove cut lengthwise to hold the barrel will work. I usually dust the holding surfaces with powdered rosin so it really grips.

Before attempting to remove the breech plug, (being first certain it is not loaded) I soak the breech section overnight in Kroil or 50/50 ATF & Acetone. (inside and out) When solidly clamped, I apply a small amount of heat (propane torch) to the breech area until I see oil sizzling out of the breech thread area. A 2 foot lever on the breech plug wrench is given a solid "whack" with heavy rubber mallet to turn the plug counter-clockwise. 99% of the time this does it.

I have been successful doing this with literally hundreds of muzzle loading muskets most of which had been undisturbed for 150+ years. I clean the male and female threads with brass wire brushes and inspect for erosion. I have found many original guns that have their breech threads eaten away by the acids from black powder fouling and a century of neglect.

If the threads are good, treat them with anti-seize compound before reassembling (nipple threads too) to insure you can remove the plug in the future. Anti-seize compound or even thick grease will prevent black powder fouling from penetrating into the threads, protecting them in this way as well.

 

[jdculpgmail.com]

Thanks for the replies! Rifleman1776, your inspection technique makes sense, but I still think I want to remove and inspect the plug and threads. I can't find a breech plug wrench online anywhere so I think I'll make one. My first thought is a piece of barstock with a trapezoid cut out of it, but if there are other designs that are simpler and just as effective, I would love to see them.

 

[bpd303]

I just forged mine like the one sold by Dixie Gun Works. http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=2824

 

[jdculpgmail.com]

That's a cool design. It doesn't get any simpler.

 

[Grumpa]

The stock cartouches appear original to the rifle, but the glare in the photo make them difficult to read. The lower one might be "ESA", which would be the mark of Springfield Armory Sub-Inspector E.S. Allin, who worked in the period 1850-1865, and inspected Civil War Rifle Muskets.

I can't make out the one above it, at all.

If you can make out what the initials are, that would help.

 

[jdculpgmail.com]

Thank you, Grumpa! Sorry for the glare, I'll get some better pictures - maybe tomorrow. Yes, the bottom one does look like ESA. I'll check for sure tomorrow.

 

[jdculpgmail.com]

Here is a somewhat better picture of the cartouches on the side of the stock. I still can't read the top one, but some of you may be familiar with the possibilities and be able to narrow it down by knowing what marks there are to choose from. I also found another one on the bottom of the stock, behind the trigger guard tang which appears to be the initials J.W.F. Does anyone know if this is the stock maker or something?

 

[Grumpa]

I'm still unable to make out the upper cartouche initials. Someone with more familiarity than me may recognize them.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

............... Does anyone know if this is the stock maker or something?

i will try to dig out my references that will help identify the markings but I can tell this, the markings are all inspectors' marking, even the one below the trigger guard. Your stock was turned on a machine and there was little if anything other than final fitting to be done to it, so none of the markings represent the name of a stock maker.

 

[jdculpgmail.com]

Awesome - thanks guys!

I love learning and preserving the mechanical history of our Nation.

I will be putting together a breech plug wrench, inspecting, assembling and shooting this piece of history!

Then next year, I'll take it hunting.

 

[bluecow]

got the same gun. no pipe shorter barrel. its my favorite ML. i use 70 grn ffg and 70 grn ( by volume) #7 shot. hornets nest for wadding.

 

[gunmaker43]

Dixie has a complete USA gov't inspectors stamp listing in back of the catalog--and a huge bunch of other info as well. Nice chunk a history....Tom

 

[jdculpgmail.com]

Thanks H. H. B. and Tom!

 

[hawkeye2]

Assuming the stock was not replaced the stock maker would have been Springfield Armory. '63 stocks were not marked by the maker even in contract pieces.

 

[satx78247]

Out of idle curiosity, are you SURE that it was rifled to begin with?
(My brother-of-the-heart, Ed, has an original 1862 "Forager's Gun", which is about 18-bore, that looks almost the same as your GF gun.)

According to the Union Army supply records, 2 smoothbore "Forager's Guns" were issued per regiment, for small game hunting.

Some were evidently made-up from "reject parts" & some were built using "line run" parts. Further, some were serial numbered within the "normal range" of SA numbers, some were numbered separately & reportedly some were not serial numbered.

Gettysburg NHP Museum has at least 3 Forager's Guns on display, that are all different from each other.

yours, satx

 

[hawkeye2]

All my research doesn't show that any "foragers guns" were made by the National Armories from '61 or '63 pattern rifle muskets. They did however produce smoothbore versions of the trapdoor that were issued for foraging. This piece is typical of post war Bannerman style conversions and I'm willing to bet that it has a wood screw on the left side securing the barrel band. At sometime, probably the 1950's, they gained the "Forager's Gun" moniker most likely to allow the seller to ask a higher price. I have one of these that probably never saw any use after its conversion and sale. I have resisted the temptation and encouragement of friends to part it out (the lock is worth more than I gave for the gun) or restore it to its original configuration as it is such a nice example of a firearm that saw a lot of use in the hands of farmers and settlers many of whom couldn't afford a cartridge gun after the war

 

[satx78247]

PLEASE tell me WHY the museum at Gettysburg NHP would have "fakes" on display. = Perhaps you should do more research, as I asked a curator about the "Forager's Guns" & was told that the guns were original to the TWBTS period & "issued 2 per Union Army regiment".
(I doubt that the curator lied. - As the "Forager's Guns" aren't "combat weapons", he also said that they aren't "sought after" by WBTS collectors & thus have mostly "minor historical interest" rather than $$$$$ value.)

just my OPINION, satx

 

[wpnsman]

satx78247
"quote; Further, some were serial numbered within the "normal range" of SA numbers, some were numbered separately & reportedly some were not serial numbered."

While this may apply to later models of trapdoor Springfields, it does not to Civil War era 1861 or 1863/64 muskets as they did not have serial numbers.

In the absence of documented provenance, 99% of supposed, claimed or advertised "Forager" muskets are products of post war surplus dealers and gunsmiths turning otherwise plentiful and low cost guns into something salable.