2 elk rifles...sight-in check

[Vaino]

Yesterday went to the range and checked the 2 elk rifles for the Colorado MLer elk hunt. The .50 TC Hawken using 100 gr. Goex 2f and 410 gr. Buffalo Bullets was "in there" as it always has been. Tried tamped newspaper ahead of the conical in an attempt to keep the conical on the powder charge and the accuracy was lousy. The hunter, during the day, will still continue to check whether the bullet is on the charge.

The .54 Pecatonica Hawken was due for some "tinkering"....the load for this rifle was 130 grs 2f and a .535 RB wrapped w/ a .025 patch and it was very accurate, although hard to load. The new load is 120 3f, a .535 RB wrapped w/ a .020 patch and the accuracy and POI was the same as the previous load....didn't touch the sights. Makes one wonder how this would be possible.....Fred

 

[hoochiepapa]

I ran into the same thing with my .54, and realized I didn't need that much powder. I dropped from 110 grs. of 2F to 90 grs., and the group stayed the same. 120 grs. is a lot of powder, and IMHO, not needed. My Lancaster booms like a thunder bolt, and kills just as it did with 110 grs. I read some where that at a certain point, more powder is just more smoke, and doesn't improve the power of a rifle.

 

[4given]

When you guys are sighting in your .54's for elk do you sight in dead on a 100 yards or something different? I'm shooting the 450 Gr Lyman Plains ahead of 100 gr of Goex FF. Right now I am dead on at 100 yards shooting sub 2" groups consistantly off the bench. I am about 6" high at 50 yards. I don't want to take a shot much farther than 100 yrds.

 

[Bill Hall]

My daughters and I sight in dead on at 50 yards with our .54's and my .58, using roundballs. If we ever killed an elk past that range, it wasn't far past it. We are sneaky (or at least try to be) :grin: . Bill

 

[Bill Hall]

Yep Fred, it's that diminishing returns thing. Waaaay back when, I hunted with a .54, using a .535 ball, and filled that barrel with 140 grains ffg, thinking that was the perfect macho flat shooting elk knocking down load. All I was doing was making the boom louder and hurting my shoulder. Over the years I backed off to 120 grains, then 110 grains, without any noticeable difference in point of impact at 50 yards, and absolutely no difference in the way the elk fell.

I don't know the formula for discerning the point of diminishing returns (if there is one), but I do know that the difference between 130 grains and 120 grains for a .54 roundball isn't enough to change the point of impact enough to notice. The difference between 90 grains and 100 grains is noticeable, but when you start getting over 110-120 grains, you're mostly just creating a whole lotta extra noise. Bill

 

[Bill Hall]

I just remembered that the last elk I killed with a .54 was with 100 grains ffg, so I was still in the process of decreasing that load. My daughter killed a big cow using a roundball with 80 grains in a 26" barrel. Bill

 

[Vaino]

The .54 w/ a RB is zeroed at 100 yds and the .50 w/ a Buffalo Bullet is zeroed just slightly high at 50 yds ...probably a 60 yd zero. Like to keep the mid-range height under 3".....Fred

 

[Vaino]

I realize that "big" powder charges don't produce velocities as efficiently as smaller charges and there is a diminishing return as powder charges go above a certain level, but where we hunt, long shots are fairly common and every bit of velocity helps. The .54 has killed a cow at 107 yds and a bull at 127 yds and neither went further than 40 yds after the shot. Of course, it's also killed elk at 20-60 yds. The change to 3f should increase efficiciency. The group size at 100 yds w/ my son's young eyes is 3-1/2"-4" which is quite sufficient for elk or deer. Thanks for the input....Fred

 

[Matt85]

dang you guys are using some monster powder loads! most gun makers say 100 grains of 2F powder is the max load for there barrels. (EX: Rice Barrels says 90 gr max for their 54 cal barrel)

i never felt like i was under loading my 50 cal at 75 grains of 3F.

if you can get good accurate results with a lighter powder load i would recomend easing up on the powder.

 

[don hepler]

Anybody got a chrony to test these loads with and give some reality checks?

Or will all that extra powder blowing out the barrel mess up a chronagraph?

Just wandering.

 

[4given]

With the Lyman 450 grain Plains bullet in my TC .54 I started with 80 gr FFg and worked up to 100 FFg. My groups kept getting smaller as I increased the powder charge. Stopped at 100 because I was satisfied with the groups I was shooting and didn't feel comfortable going up any higher.

 

[hoochiepapa]

The same with my .54, the more I poured into it, the more accurate it became, to a point. I can consistently get 3" groups with my Lancaster off the bench, whether I'm using 100 grs., or 90. The 90 grs. load opens up a little, but not enough to worry about at my max range of 100 yards or so. There also is no discernable difference in muzzle blast or recoil, either.
I also read where there were tests done and the velocity didn't increase with "magnum" charges, that's why I dropped mine. So you long-range shooters are just wasting powder. (I don't remember if that article was here, or in a magazine.)

 

[cynthialee]

I loaded my .50 with a heavy conical and 90 grains of powder once. The kick was enough to convince me that I should stick with less than 85 grains. The bruise took almost 2 weeks to clear up.

 

[BrownBear]

...and the accuracy and POI was the same as the previous load....didn't touch the sights. Makes one wonder how this would be possible.....Fred

You don't mention how far you were shooting, but I don't expect to see a big change in POI with load changes until you get out into "rainbow" territory, where the ball is slowing and little changes in velocity can make bigger differences.

I guess I need to put #'s on that, don't I? Call it 50 yards and little or now POI shift, but at 100 (as far as I shoot), yeah. I might see an inch or two higher or lower with the kind of changes you made. A guess on my part about your guns and loads, but ballpark for mine.

 

[Vaino]

The .54 w/ PRB was shot at 100 yds...both the previous load and the "new" load printed the same and req'd no sight adjustment. Amazing to me...anyways.

Hunted elk in both Montana and Colorado and much prefer the latter....the areas we hunted in Montana were like a "rain forest"...very thick cover. The present area in Colorado has been hunted since 1985 and offers thick cover as well as open areas w/ "islands" of fir and spruce and these are the areas where the longer shots are taken.

Let it be said that I've "passed" on elk if I estimate that they're beyond my and the Hawken's capabilities and the 127 yd kill was estimated correctly and at that range, we're very confident. The "big" PRB loads we use are proven and certainly "get the job" done
and work quite well for us. Others might think "smaller" loads are the way to go and that's their perogatives.....Fred

 

[Dphar]

The .54 w/ PRB was shot at 100 yds...both the previous load and the "new" load printed the same and req'd no sight adjustment. Amazing to me...anyways.

Hunted elk in both Montana and Colorado and much prefer the latter....the areas we hunted in Montana were like a "rain forest"...very thick cover. The present area in Colorado has been hunted since 1985 and offers thick cover as well as open areas w/ "islands" of fir and spruce and these are the areas where the longer shots are taken.

Let it be said that I've "passed" on elk if I estimate that they're beyond my and the Hawken's capabilities and the 127 yd kill was estimated correctly and at that range, we're very confident. The "big" PRB loads we use are proven and certainly "get the job" done
and work quite well for us. Others might think "smaller" loads are the way to go and that's their perogatives.....Fred

FFF gives higher velocity than FF and equal even when 10-20 gr more FF is used.
Killing power is determined by ball size so long as penetration is sufficient. At 100 a 54 RB has shed a lot of velocity.
I shoot 90 gr of FFF Swiss in a 54 flint and get all the velocity I need, about 1900 from a 38" flintlock with a cupped breech (from 5 year old chrono data).
I shoot 535 and a .018 patch.
A 54 RB will kill anything in North America once at 800-900 fps WITH PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT. But this MV will cause impossibly high trajectories.
So we load for high MV to flatten the trajectory and/or give best accuracy.
I have a laser range finder. I would not pass on an elk under 150 if the wind was not howling.
This is something that must be VERY carefully considered since at 100 yards 3 ft of drift is possible. I don't hunt open areas when its blowing hard. I find brushy draws. But where I hunt elk long shots are not common though possible.
Last elk I had a shot at was at about 20 yards, but I did not have a cow tag...
Dan

 

[Zonie]

More powder always results in more velocity but with the powders used in muzzleloaders there is a definite point where the amount of gain isn't as much.

The graph below shows the velocities obtained and published by Lyman in their book, "BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL, 2nd Ed"

The only screw up is the ball size I typed in. It should say .535 DIA.

The lowest velocities are with 40 grain powder charges and the maximum velocity shows the 120 grain loads.

(Starting with 40, each dot to the right represents an increase of 10 grains).

Notice that after 80 grains, there is less gain for every 10 grains added than there was between 40 and 80.