28 twist .50

[Mark Walker]

What kind of accuracy can I expect from regular lead conicals at 100, 200? Also, what should I be doing for the lead fowling, and how often? How should I differ from my round ball rig as far as bore prep and cleaning ect.

Flincher

 

you can expect 20" groups at 100, and 4' groups at 200 using full lead conicals in an "over the counter" modern 1:28 twist.
Sorry,,truth. If anyone can say different, than please do so.

again,sorry, those new and common today, 'fast twist" rifles,, just simply wernt' made fer full lead bullets. That's it.
Try the in-line guys on this very forum,,I'm sure they can help with findin a proper projectile for ya,,they "know how" about them fast twists,,and I wish'im all luck. But full lead,?? Nope, just don't work well in a 1:28,,
luck to ya,
see it's all about weight,length and proper rotation of a projectile for accuracy, even a "sphere" in a .50 cal(that's like 1/2"?) will have too high a rotation to achieve proper areodynamics/ballistics co-efficiant in a 1:28 twist. The same weight of a .50 cal ball,185grns, might be just fine. But it needs to be longer and thinner ta get a good "spin" for it's shape and delivery rate of barrel twist at 1:28.
BTW,Do ya all know what twist rate really means? 1:28,1:32,1:48,,1:66,etc...? It means the barrels rifling will make one full revolution in 28 inches. Or one full revolution in 66 inches. Now if you got a 24" barrel with a 1:28,, or a 32" barrel with a 1:66,, neither will give the projectile a full revolution before it exits the barrel!!?? :shocking: :haha: confused yet?? It's not really that hard ta figer,,Green Hill formula anyone?

anyway's,,aw manure,,whar's the cork?? lost the cork again,,dang it,,

 

[Zonie]

I haven't shot pure lead unpatched bullets in my muzzleloading Schuetzen because I an a little concerned about leading.
Because of this concern, I shoot paper patched 330 and 400 grain pure lead bullets. The 400 grain bullet is over 1 1/4 long and is made without any grooves specially for paper patching. Both bullets shoot with superb accuracy.

This gun has .400 bore barrel with a 1:18 twist. The grooves are only about .004 deep (again, it is designed for paper patched bullets).

The powder load I use with these bullets is between 70 and 80 grains of FFg.

I realize you weren't asking about this kind of specialized gun and bullets, but it does prove that muzzleloading blackpowder guns with fast twist barrels can shoot very respectable groups with pure lead bullets.
::

 

yabutt,,Zonie,, yer chunk gun ain't no 1:28 50. :bull: an ya know darn well it's differnt. :nono: ain't no over the counter gun ya got there. :sorry:
k. i give up,, you tell how ta best shoot a full lead bullet in a 50 cal 1:28. sorry i don't mean too offend, but dang,, ::

 

My .50 cal. McGowan barrel had a twist of 26", reportedly said to be too fast for .50 cal, and now some modern barrel makers are making twists of 28" for the normal 450 to 500gr. bullets.
: This barrel was for my rolling block, but I did shoot it muzzleloaded, by pushing a bore=sized Hornady ML slug down to the end of the chamber, then chambered a BP loaded case behind it. This pretty much duplicates a muzzleloaded slug in a ML gun. I did it to use more powder than the case I was using would alow with a bullet seated.
: Accuracy was identical to my fixed (pre-loaded)ammo. That is, 1 1/2" at 100meters. and 1 1/2" at 200yards. That's 1 1/2MOA (approx) at 109yards, and 3/4 MOA at 200yards.
; There is a learning streak with slug shooting, just as there is with RB shooting. The proper 'fit' must be attained, as well as the proper LUBRICANT must also be used. Leading will not occur IF the proper lube is used, along with a card wad between the powder and bullet, just as they are loaded in the ctg. case for a ctg. gun. Pure lead bullets to 40:1 (lead/tin) mix must be used, as the slug must be soft enough to expand into the rifling. Use the wrong lube, and leading can occur. Omit the card, and leading might occur, maybe not. I've had best luck with a card wad from .030" to .1" thick. OxYoke wads also work, but are expensive, adding to the cost of each shot.
: You must experiment - different bullets, different lubes.
: The best method, is to pick a mould, cast pure lead bullets, size them to the correct size for a .001" interferance fit in the bore, then experiment with powder charges and different lubes. That 28" to 32" should shoot 450gr. to 500 gr. .50 cal. bullets just fine.

 

[Slamfire]

I guess them 1:20" Whitworths don't do well with them 300 grain lead conicals then. hmmm? :says:

 

ok Daryl thanks,,nextyme I get a Mcgowan barrel for my rolling block I'll keep in mind how to plug the bore and load it from the muzzle,,(you'll never be allowed to shoot "THAT" gun in a ML season,nor during any traditional ML compition state side)(sorry, rolling blocks load from the breech) now,,could you explain "how too" shoot full lead projectiles from a 1:28 twist using the normal 50 cal. full lead bullets available to the typical feller OTC??
special guns "are" special,, advanced shooters "are" advanced shooters, that's for sure but, most folks won't go that far.
is it too much ta ask ta back-up a step or two,get on the same page,or am i wrong all the tyme? didn't ya post about using conicals in a 1:48 on the bear huntin thread,,you were sayin stuff about Moose? Well it's the same thing happening here state-side. Guy's want BIG bullets in cheap rifles because they think it will compensate.( deep breath,,sigh,hhmm,). Man(!),,tell me how ta shoot, full lead conicals, in a 1:28. I gotta go deer hunting next week!(sorry)
I wish ya all the best of luck,,I really do,,

 

slamfire,,
,,when them whitworths "keyhole" at 100, then them boys start talking about lube,,don't they?? Oopp's,,sorry. I'll go to wallymart and pick-up a whitworth tomorrow,,then I can practice with the 1:20,,then I'll know about 1:28.
Gosh, my mistake,, :sorry:

 

[Zonie]

I think the gist of this is that IMO there are guns which can shoot pure lead slugs in fast twist barrels. That includes .50 caliber in a 1:28 twist barrel.

The long, heavy lead slug needs to be spinning fast enough to stabilize it in flight. That is a catch 22 because the longer and heaver it is, the faster it needs to spin, but the heaver it is, the slower it will be with a given powder charge.
The reason guns which shoot this kind of bullet need to have faster twists is to make up for the slower velocity the heavy slug will be traveling.

I suspect that REAL bullets, Balletts, and Maxi-Bullets might shoot well with this twist as long as the powder charge wasn't so great that it caused the bullet to loose it's grip on the rifleing causing it to slip or skip (and lead the bore).

No, I haven't shot a .50 cal, 1:28 twist gun but if I was a betting man, I would bet that if Sumtacks, was given a few hundred rounds of several different .50 caliber bullets, several different lubes, a few pounds of powder, a few hundred caps and some time could come up with the right combination to get some very good accuracy well past 100 yards.

 

No, I haven't shot a .50 cal, 1:28 twist gun but if I was a betting man, I would bet that if Sumtacks, was given a few hundred rounds of several different .50 caliber bullets, several different lubes, a few pounds of powder, a few hundred caps and some time could come up with the right combination to get some very good accuracy well past 100 yards.

I've already done that,,I've gone through several pounds of powder, and more than a few hunderd caps,,maybe not several hundered different .50 cal bullets,,but I have tried a wide range of .50 cal bullets from short too long using each with several different lube combos and a vast aray of powder charges in a very mathmatical method using a few different 1:28 twist.
So I said what I do know,
,sorry if I stepped on toes. :sorry:

I just cain't figger out why folks answer with info about 1:18,1:24,and or 1:20, , :hmm:,
when the topic is 1:28?? eace:

I'm refering too; modern over the counter common arms and the same for common full lead projectiles, if anything,,use short projectiles and a very dry lube with some kind of over-powder buffer,I can't quote powder charges because I don't know what type of powder your using,,in my experiance,,muzzle velocities as it equates to common publication,,,,anything over 1200 fps in 1:28's will cause a full lead projectile to 'Skip" or whatever it does,,and not shoot fer manure! let's try more specific,,a Knight? a T/C? a Cabelas/Investarms? A Green Mountin Barrel? Go ahead try it. I'd almost say it was a waste of time and money for me,,but it wasn't,,I learnd.
Go ahead,learn it yerself then,,geez! :blah:

 

[gordy317]

I'm no expert, so I went looking.

This is what I found on Dixie Gun Works' web page under FAQs: (#23 & 24) They answer both expected accuracy, and projectiles for twist rates in production muzzleloaders. Their answers:

"* What kind of accuracy can I expect from my muzzleloader?

Accuracy in muzzleloading is determined by the individual and combined characteristics of the firearm, the load and the shooter. Obtaining accuracy can be as much an art as a science. Muzzleloaders are capable of producing surprising accurracy, and, the average shooter with a production muzzleloader should be able to obtain the following results:

Single shot pistol -- 2 to 3 inch groups at 25 yards
Revolver -- 2 to 3 inch groups at 25 yards
Smooth bore rifle -- 4 to 5 inch groups at 50 yards, 6 inch groups at 100 yards
Rifled musket -- 3 to 4 inch groups at 50 yards, 6 inch groups at 100 yards
Rifle -- 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 yards, 6 inch groups at 100 yards

When sighting in a new muzzleloader, shooting should be done with a bench rest to obtain best accuracy and to build confidence in the guns ability before shooting offhand. Finding the most accurate load for your muzzleloader will require a fair amount of shooting, but the results will justify the effort.

* How does the barrel rifling affect the performance of the muzzleloader?

The method of rifling the barrel will have a profound impact on the accuracy of the muzzleloader. The rate of twist of the rifling will determine the proper type of projectile. For slow twist barrels (1 turn in 56 to 72 inches) use a patched round ball. For fast twist barrels (1 turn in 16 to 28 inches) use a conical bullet. Medium twist barrels are designed to shoot both patched round balls and conical bullets. Round balls may be used in a muzzleloader with a fast twist with good results. The key is to reduce the powder charge so the ball does not travel through the barrel so fast that it strips the rifling and does not take the twist or rotation. A discussion of other factors in barrel rifling such as different methods (cut, broach, button, etc.), number, width and depth of grooves, while important, is beyond the scope of this discussion."

 

[Mark Walker]

Those accuracy figures seem awful gloomy; how could one consider a six inch gun long range? I thought the conicals were going to gain me some yardage. My round ball gun walks all over that!!! I guess I'll go have a drink, and take up BINGO instead.

Flincher

 

[gordy317]

Note that the accuracy figures didn't have anything in them about the type of projectile. They'd include your PRBs too. - - and I know that a lot of people in this forum, myself included, do much better than 6" at 100 yd. - - and I'm a newbe, and shoot cheap guns - 1:20 pistol, 1:28 inline, 1:32 sidelock, 1:48 sidelock. I shoot conicals in all of them, and get a heck of a lot better than 20" groups at 100 yds.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I see what Sumtacks is getting at. I don't have a 1:28" twist, but my 1:48" twist T/C will drop solid lead Maxi-Hunters into a 2" group at 100 yards off X-sticks . . . occasionally.

The fault of larger groups is not due to the projectile, it's due to a projectile mis-matched to the rifling. With .50 lead conicals ranging from 250 gr up to 370 gr you'll have to experiment to see which one your particular rifle likes, and at which velocity.

Too bad some firm doesn't offer a sampler package for different calibers with 10 or so of as many different brands as possible. Several places will sell you a couple dozen different pellets from assorted manufacturers for testing which your air-gun prefers.

'Course, shooting round balls will get you into Valhalla without waiting in line as long.

 

Ridicule and Sarcasim are the lowest forms of humour, but typically steriotype American. Not all Americans are like that, thankfully - but enough are to spoil the soup. Oh- SORRY if I stepped on any toes - that's just my opinion, of course.

 

[sabotloader]

Flincher,

To cut to the chase, cause i am not sure what some of these other comments were or are.

I shoot a Green Mountain fast twist, 1:28, barrel mounted on a TC Hawkin frame. I have found it to be really accurate, even with the open sights. The sights, for me are the "limiting factor." @ 75 yards i can hold a 1.5" pattern easy - it does open up to 2 - 2.5 at a 100 but that again is because of the open sigths.

I have shot 320gr REAL conicals out it and the worked very well. I must admit, I shoot sabots and bullets, in Idaho that is legal, in fact in my 50 fast twist I shoot 100 grains of loose t7, 300 grain .458(45/70) Hornady or Nosler in an MMP Orange HPH sabot - deadly accurate combination.

Good luck in your search for a good combination...

 

[Slamfire]

I just cain't figger out why folks answer with info about 1:18,1:24,and or 1:20, , :hmm:,
when the topic is 1:28?? eace:

I guess since you were so positive 1:28" was too fast for accurately shootin' conicals we were confused when faster twists seemed to to ok. :m2c:

 

Thank you sabot shooter,,the info about using the modern sabots an stuff in a 1:28 has undeniably more accuracy than full lead in same..I made that comment in my first post,and refered the gent too the modern forum. 200yrd shot's infer optic aided sights,,most guy's don't know what a 6" circle looks like at 200 yrds over open iron,,I never ment sarcasim..just honest/practical experiance,not speculation. I'll not diker here longer,,anyone really wants more info PM. I'll share what I learnd from my own hands on. :results:

 

I am truley sorry - so much can be read into a response, that carefull wording is vitally important- especially when there it is a disagreement - or misunderstanding. I tend to take for granted, knowledge or understanding that might not be there yet. It was my fault. Again- sorry for the missunderstanding. Perhaps when I can totally get off this pain medication I've been on for 5 years, things will improve.
: RIFLE BARREL TWISTS: It matters not whether the rifle is a muzzleloader or a ctg. gun, when full sized lead bullets & black powder(or smokeless for that matter) are being used. The rifling twist is what spins the bullet. A 450gr. .50 calibre bullet is properly stabilized by any twist in .50 cal. from 22" to about 36" at the slowest rate. It just isn't that critical. When the calibre drops to .45 or even smaller, there becomes a need for even faster twists, although with very short bullets, 38" twist, as in current lever guns, will still stabilize pistol bullets. I am referring to 240gr. to 280gr. bullets. As the bullet weight goes up, they become longer, and a faster twist is necessary to stabilize them. By the time the weight of the .45 bullet reaches 500gr., a 22" twist is minimum for proper stabilization, and even faster twists do better, in the range of 18".
: .50 calibre bullets are much shorter for a given weight than .45cal bullets and therefore require slower twists. This means for the same weight, say 500gr., the slower twist of 24" to 28" can be used with excellent accuracy. For a more standard 400gr. to 450gr. weight as in the Great Plains bullets or similar projectiles, the rifing twist may be as slow as 36", as shown by the Shiloh Sharps .50 cal buffalo rifles.
: Since 28" is about in the middle of usefull twists for that length bullet, long range stability should be excellent. A bullet can handle over stabilization, but not the reverse.
: With a full sized .50 cal bullet, properly lubricated and sized for the barrel(.001 OVER bore dia) it is intended to be loaded in, a 450gr. slug should give 2MOA accuracy to 1,000yds. from the 28" twist barrel.
: For more informaton on loading requirements to obtain this type of accuracy, check out Paul Mathews books on the subject of black powder and concial bullets. The books aren't expensive but are an incredible source of BP slug-shooting & loading information. Several books are on ctg. shooting, but are still relevent- the same tricks & loading practises work both places.
: It is nice to have a slug load that can be shot without cleaning - no?
: I hope this better explains rifling twists and their requirements.