2F for a long range session - had to wipe

[roundball]

For the past 3 years worth of 40-50 shot range sessions with my flintlocks I've always used Goex 3F and bore butter...never wipe between shots, accuracy stayed solid, easy to load, etc...ie: .54cal I use 60grns 3F target loads.

Today, I tried the same .54cal using 70grn 2F target loads and could gradually begin to feel resistance increasing as I shot and reloaded. Accuracy began to suffer around a 10-12 shots and it was getting noticeably difficult to load, although I still could.

Cleaned the barrel completely and started again, this time adding wonderwads and got up around 15-16 shots before accuracy began to suffer...cleaned again and finished the 40 shot session.

Definitely proved to me that my Goex 2F fouls more than my 3F...with Goex 3F I just sail through 40 shots without accuracy or loading difficulties at all.

I had used 2F before when sighting in a .58cal, but always cleaned the barrel after every shot for sighting in purposes...and since the .58cal balls are pretty expensive, I never tried using it for a long range session.

I don't like the bother of wiping between every shot so if I use 2F again for a range session, I'll just try cleaning the bore every several shots at the same time I periodically clean the flint/frizzen/pan...should work fine for range plinking

 

[flaming canvas]

RB,

What are you using for lube? My longest string without wiping was 84 shots using 60 grains of Kik 2f and spit patching in my 54. I could have gone longer, but the rondy ended.

 

[Bob J]

Thanks for the range report on 2f. Your previous reports on 3f and wonderlube convinced me to try 3f in the .54 GPR and it works great! :RO: Plan on trying 3f for prime and main charge in the .54 flinter (when its completed in Aug can't wait!). Will stick with 2f in .58 and 10 ga.

 

[Stumpkiller]

15 is about as far as I ever dared with either the Natural Lube or my Moose Snot, and I use FFg. In either case I could probably do more, but the risk of battling a stuck ball isn't worth the time it takes to run a spit patch through the bore. With the dried moose milk patching I've been using lately, I wipe every third or fifth shot as they have much less lubricity (I guess that's a word). The liquid moose milk will go indefinately.

One thing I've found in every case is cleaning the bore and lightly lubing it before the first load makes a world of difference in ease of loading and keeping the fouling down.

 

[roundball]

RB,

What are you using for lube? My longest string without wiping was 84 shots using 60 grains of Kik 2f and spit patching in my 54. I could have gone longer, but the rondy ended.

NL1000 is all I ever use...sounds like Kik is some really clean burning powder.

Like your situation, I can shoot Goex 3F "all day" without wiping and it's what I always use for both targets and hunting loads in .45/.50/.54cals...was just running a comparison test on Goex 2F today, following an earlier discussion on another thread...no interest in switching from 3F to 2F for range work, just doing a comparison

 

[freetrapper20]

I usually can get 20 - 30 shots no problem with out wiping, but thats using good and wet spit patches. With pre-lubed patches using bore butter its only around 10 or so, like you. Got about 7 pounds of 2f to burn before I think about switching. It seems I can get 2f easier around here cause all the re-enactors buy up all the 3f.

 

[flaming canvas]

RB,

What are you using for lube? My longest string without wiping was 84 shots using 60 grains of Kik 2f and spit patching in my 54. I could have gone longer, but the rondy ended.

NL1000 is all I ever use...sounds like Kik is some really clean burning powder.

Like your situation, I can shoot Goex 3F "all day" without wiping and it's what I always use for both targets and hunting loads in .45/.50/.54cals...was just running a comparison test on Goex 2F today, following an earlier discussion on another thread...no interest in switching from 3F to 2F for range work, just doing a comparison

It may be more due to really wet spit patching and a tight patch/ball combo. The bore is getting scrubbed every time I load. I was out yesterday trying some 200 yard shots, trying to get the sight picture down for silhouette matches.
15 or 16 shots with 100 grains. Loaded like the bore was clean all the way through and took 4 patches to get the fouling out when I cleaned it.

 

[roundball]

but the risk of battling a stuck ball isn't worth the time it takes to run a spit patch through the bore.

The liquid moose milk will go indefinately.

One thing I've found in every case is cleaning the bore and lightly lubing it before the first load makes a world of difference in ease of loading and keeping the fouling down.

I agree with all three points...at first I thought it was because Kik produced less fouling but from all the posts, it really seems like spit / liquid type lubes is what makes the difference with 2F fouling...apparently is a little more than NL1000 can deal with.

I may try 2F again this weekend using some sort of spit or pre-dampened patches just to get the first hand experience of how it does for me...amazing the difference between 3F and 2F though...if I hadn't tried this today, I never would have believed it

 

[montanadan]

Roundball-Thanks for posting the difference between 2fg and 3fg,I am still using 2fg in my 54. I use 100grn 2fg(Goex) for the 200,I was using the LeHigh Valley, but switched to Stumpkillers Moose liquid stuff. I can shoot at least 15 shots just as easy to load as the first.I use .535 ball,.015 patch,RWS1075+ caps, so I would like to try 3fg. Would 90grns be about the same? I have fixed sights.Thanks Respectfully Montanadan

 

[Old Charlie]

I use Goex 3f in my .50 and .54s. With light loads you can shoot all day with out cleaning. The bigger the charge the more fouling. You put in those 100 grain charges and you will have to clean more often.
Old Charlie :results:

 

[roundball]

Roundball-Thanks for posting the difference between 2fg and 3fg,I am still using 2fg in my 54. I use 100grn 2fg(Goex) for the 200,I was using the LeHigh Valley, but switched to Stumpkillers Moose liquid stuff. I can shoot at least 15 shots just as easy to load as the first.I use .535 ball,.015 patch,RWS1075+ caps, so I would like to try 3fg. Would 90grns be about the same? I have fixed sights.Thanks Respectfully Montanadan

90grns 3F would probably be very close to the POI for 100grns 2F...just have to compare and see...you might have to tweak it to match it up to your fixed sights.

I happen to use 90grns Goex 3F for my hunting load, but I adjusted my sights to that charge from the git-go

 

[montanadan]

Roundball-Thanks, going to try 3fg this weekend if the weather gets better.My 200 shooting is at paper,sometimes at the 300 gong. Thanks again ..Respectfully Montanadan..

 

[cayugad]

Roundball and others.. excellent information as usual. I am a swabber by nature. Unless testing a projectile or powder, I seldom see how many shots I can go without doing so....

I will have to pay close attention next time. Usually after five or six shots I swab just to see the effect on the projectiles. I will have to see who gives out first on some Pinnacle, me swabbing or the number of shots...

 

[whiskeyjoe]

Boys,I sure wish I could get by without swabbing as much as I have to. I have one of Dixie's Tennesee mtn. poorboys and I'm pushing it if I try to get beyond say, five shots without having to swab. I use a .490 ball,.015 wonder wad(pre-lubed)and my target/hunting load is 80 grs.3f. I have had to deal with a stuck ball more than once. It's pretty much standard procedure for me to swab after every second shot which is something of a pain,but sure beats the hell out of fightin' with a stuck ball! :curse:

 

[buckknife]

Roundball was the humidity on the day you tried the 2f at 40% or less?There is a good read about fouling,relative humidity and if 2f fouls any worse than 3f.Comes from someone who knows black powder.Scroll down to black powder and fouling.It is worth the read.
http://www.thunder-ridge-muzzleloading.com/Bill%20Knight.htm

 

[roundball]

Roundball was the humidity on the day you tried the 2f at 40% or less?There is a good read about fouling,relative humidity and if 2f fouls any worse than 3f.Comes from someone who knows black powder.Scroll down to black powder and fouling.It is worth the read.
http://www.thunder-ridge-muzzleloading.com/Bill%20Knight.htm

I seriously doubt it...it was early in the morning, heavy fog, condensation dripping off the metal roof of the pole shelter I was under at the range, etc. I'm familier with the different effects of low and high humidity on fouling...I've shot 60grn target loads most Saturday's since the first of the year in humidity so low the pan dries instantly and there are red flecks in the pan and on the muzzle.

This past weekend I was using 70grns 2F compared to my normal 60grns 3F...same rifle, same patches, same everything else...the humidity was at least no worse and if anything a tad higher...the 2F simply fouled more, and surprisingly so, given there was only 10grns difference in charge weight.

The good news is I normally use 3F for range sessions and it doesn't require wiping between shots...

 

[cayugad]

Yesterday I was shooting the Lyman Trade Rifle Flinter using 100 grains of 2f. I finally had to swab on about the 12th shot. I could feel a place where the fowling was getting thick in the barrel.

Today I was shooting the T/C Hawkins Flinter using 90 grains of 3f and shot all morning (approximately 20 shot) and never swabbed. I did have to wipe the pan frizzen and flint off a few times, but never had to swab the barrel....

I wonder.. both cases I was shooting roundball and today a few maxiball. I think it might have more to do with barrel tolerances.

 

[roundball]

Yesterday I was shooting the Lyman Trade Rifle Flinter using 100 grains of 2f. I finally had to swab on about the 12th shot. I could feel a place where the fowling was getting thick in the barrel.

Today I was shooting the T/C Hawkins Flinter using 90 grains of 3f and shot all morning (approximately 20 shot) and never swabbed. I did have to wipe the pan frizzen and flint off a few times, but never had to swab the barrel....

I wonder.. both cases I was shooting roundball and today a few maxiball. I think it might have more to do with barrel tolerances.

Except in my example, I was literally using the same rifle, same lube, same patches, same balls, etc...the only difference was 3F vs. 2F.

Going again at first light in the[url] morning...rain[/url] starting tonight and all through tomorrow so humidity should be high...(I'll be under an open pole shelter with a tin roof)...so I'll try the same 2F routine again to see how long I can shoot without wiping in that damp condition.

Note: However...I shoot range sessions really fast...taking premeasured powder charges with me in 35mm film canisters, and once I start shooting I'm pouring the next charge with smoke still coming out of the muzzle, so I'm not even sure how much chance humidity has to enter into the equation as far as the bore is concerned....pan is exposed a little longer of course...I'll let you know what happens tomorrow with the rain...what a a great hobby !

 

[buckknife]

Id say you may need a little more lube on the patch when shooting that lot no. of 2f.Some of the older lots of goex seem to foul worse than the newer lots.Bill Knights experymenten was done using lehigh valley lube,liquid.Using bore butter a wax based lube may give different results to some degree.
Being a hunter like you roundball i have the utmost respect for you and i know you wont need more un one shot at a deer anywho.So i know you could make the 2f work in a hunting day if ya wanted to,if not you do have plenty of 3f :winking:Ive found with my 54 that 2f gives me better groups than 3f,and that is with a lot no. of powder that i thought fouled something terrible than the previous lot of 2f i had.Trouble is i have that lot of what i thought was once bad stuff that turned out to be good stuff almost gone.
Just courious what is the date on the bottom of the can?

 

[Rat]

WhiskeyJoe sounds like you need to go to, or try a smaller ball....485"??

I'm thinking that the ffg just does not burn clean under light pressure...more to do with the burn rate under pressure than the lube. Just a thought. Target or light hunting loads just don't get enough pressure up for it to burn clean, and we are kind of comparing apples to bananas.

Probably with very heavy hunting loads, possibly a bit hotter than most people load, the difference would not be so great...but then with large volumes of powder, you'd get larger volumes of fouling...but possibly more equal amounts between ffg and fffg. But yer shoulder might be in pain long before it's time to wipe between shots!

Rat