.32 PRB for Mountain Lion

[Treestalker]

According to my Dad's oral history, One of my Grandfather's brothers was attacked by a panther near Many, La in the late 1800's early 1900's. My grandfather, M.S. Briggs, had homesteaded a section north of Mt. Carmel. According to the story, his brother had been through the woods on a hike to visit someone and was returning home. Upon approaching 'Middle Creek' he was jumped by the cat and shot it with a .45 Colt Peacemaker five times. He lived and the cat didn't. No details on injuries, but this was told as truth, and my mother verified having heard the story from my grandmother Briggs. Taken together, that's gospel. I believe he killed it and made it home. I really don't know if it jumped him or he just shot it. This was a time when no one questioned a man packing Iron for his own defence, and I do believe it happened. It would have been in what is now the Kisatchee National Forest. George.

 

[Rat]

If you use a 32, you either are going to have to make a head shot or a solid neck shot which is probably what is aimed at with the 22mag (I am betting that is done with a low power scope also). A chest shot would kill it but it will take a lot longer with either the 22mag or 32cal, as a single shot. Shooting the neck you are either going to hit the spine, major blood vessels, or take out the trachea. Hitting any of these "should" give you a quick clean kill. Your shooting WILL have to be precise though, because those target areas, will be small, and you will be shooting through limbs with that cat in a tree. More than likely free handed, your heart pounding, and wore out from chasing it. If you are going for the chest cavity shot 40cal or bigger, cats can get well over 200lbs for a big Tom. If you think about, it that is deer size game, but a whole lot meaner. Would YOU hunt deer with a 32cal? A .357 was mentioned, you are talking magnum velocities with that round using a 125-168gr bullet, which gives you high kinetic energy for impact, greater expansion, and tissue destruction into the chest cavity. It will work for deer at closer ranges. You are not going to get that kind of kinetic energy with a 45-50gr 32cal round ball out of a muzzleloader, which is even smaller than the .357 in diameter. You are trying to take this animal with a muzzleloader, as a muzzloader kill. Do you really want a center fire round through your animal to finish it off? Because you thought you could do it with a squirrel round? If you worried about an exit hole with your shot, a good taxidermist can take care of that with no problem, that cat will have a winter coat on when you shoot it. Your hunt, your chance, your choice. DANNY

It won't be wise to pull a pistol in the middle of a dog-n-wounded cougar melee on the ground, along with other dudes doing the same. Remember..."cross fire". So it won't come into play. Actually a large bowie knife would be a more logical choice. And weigh a bit less. Indeed, an exit hole is no big deal, (I leave the bullet holes in the hide...I think they have cool-factor) and certainly a good trade off for a quicker kill. Still, for a guided hunt, and a treed cat, I think the .32 will be okay, hopefully loaded hot. (double ball load?)

 

[mahkagari]

Actually a large bowie knife would be a more logical choice.

I do enough of that with boars and their tusks in the middle of a dog pack. Not crazy about adding kitty claws to the mix.

 

[Rat]

I do enough of that with boars and their tusks in the middle of a dog pack. Not crazy about adding kitty claws to the mix.

Truth. But I'm thinking it might be better to nick a guide or his dogs, or his partners with a knife, than to put a .357 Magnum slug through them.

 

[arcticap]

Truth. But I'm thinking it might be better to nick a guide or his dogs, or his partners with a knife, than to put a .357 Magnum slug through them.

There's no real need to shoot into a pack of dogs when they can pursue and chase the cougar up into another tree.
Whether it's wounded or not, the cougar won't get away.
It can only prolong the chase under most circumstances.
Or the hunter can decide to let the cougar escape if he doesn't like it enough to shoot it.
Also, the dogs can always be restrained and held very close by before any shot is taken at all.

 

[SDSmlf]

There's no real need to shoot into a pack of dogs when they can pursue and chase the cougar up into another tree.
Whether it's wounded or not, the cougar won't get away.
It can only prolong the chase under most circumstances.
Or the hunter can decide to let the cougar escape if he doesn't like it enough to shoot it.
Also, the dogs can always be restrained and held very close by before any shot is taken at all.

I’ll ask one more time. What is the opinion of those who have actually hunted cats with hounds? Do you agree with the OP’s guide that a 32 caliber RB is sufficient and ethical? Believe we have heard enough speculation and seen sufficient Google search results from the keyboard jockeys who have never hunted mountain lions chased by hounds. Time for those with actual experience. Speak up please.

 

[Eterry]

Here's what I know. We had a friend who was a Trapper for the Great State of Texas. His job was to trap/ remove/ dispose of nuisance animals near state parks and camping areas, along with other cool assignments. Most critters he went after were black bear, hogs and mountain lions. He even got farmed out to neighboring states.

The state issued him a Remington 870 riot gun and all the #4 buck he wanted, and a Marlin bolt action 22 magnum with cases of Winchester JHP ammo.

The hides and skulls were property of the state, even though i begged him to lose one, it never happened.

He used hounds as often as possible to tree the"painters" and busted them in the lungs with the 22 mag., after tying up the hounds. He said it was boring how easy it was to cleanly kill them with the 22 mag. He shot one with #4 buck and had to chase it down. He gave us all the #4 buck we wanted.

He said he shot a nuisance black bear in Big Bend with the buckshot and retired it after, using his 94 Winchester for bears after that.

This man killed dozens of cats over 30 plus years and never had a problem with the 22 mag.
He said no one but him had a gun cause he didn't want a hound killed but friendly fire.

I think a 32 prb ahead of 50grs fffg in the lungs is better than a 58 in the hindquarters.

Be sure and post pictures.

 

[arcticap]

I’ll ask one more time. What is the opinion of those who have actually hunted cats with hounds? Do you agree with the OP’s guide that a 32 caliber RB is sufficient and ethical? Believe we have heard enough speculation and seen sufficient Google search results from the keyboard jockeys who have never hunted mountain lions chased by hounds. Time for those with actual experience. Speak up please.

Since you quoted me, let me say that the OP clearly asked not only about .32 PRB;s, but also about .32 Maxi's which he has already purchased for load development.
Anyone should know that it involves the size of the game that needs to be penetrated and shot placement.
What if no one here has ever shot a cougar with a .32 PRB?
Does that mean that no one should post?
I can appreciate all of the discussion about using rimfire & centerfire guns as a comparison for a .32 round ball.
The guide recommended a head shot.
Does that answer your question?
What is ethical is what is within the state law or tribal law of the reservation, the guide that's in charge or the hunter himself who is allowed to make his own decisions about what to use.
And I sincerely appreciate Eterry's post about just how well a 45 grain WMR bullet can dispatch a cougar which is totally in line with what has been said all along, that average cougars aren't that hard to kill.
Now please answer my question, what if no one here or posting has ever killed a cougar using a .32 ball before?
Should we all stop posting?
Until the hunt occurs, everything is logical speculation.
We still don't know if the OP will use a PRB, a Maxi or even a muzzle loader or not.
I simply respect the man for what he wants to do, whether he chooses to follow through and is able to do it or not.
At least one person has said to use 2 PRB's.
Why not load 3?
Maybe there's no need, it simply depends on what the hunter wants to do.
He's the executioner.
He has a chronograph.
And he knows the energy levels.
This is not the OP's only thread about the subject.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

eterry is right. talked to a lot of hunters in western ne and some in western s.dak. who have shot one. also a neighbor who is six miles east of me. wasnt hard to kill. usually didnt ever have to tree them a second time the first tree did it.the neighbor six miles east of of me has a big tree in his front yard. one day his then eleven year old daughter went to play under it. their cattle type dog wouldnt let her go under it. she looked up and saw a big male lion in the tree. she went into the house and her dad came out and shot it out of the tree. on the rez at wolf creek school a teacher came out of the school at the end of the day. for some reason she looked under her pickup. their was a mountain lion sleeping under her pickup. she called the tribal police, they brought uzies, they took care of that lion quickly, way over kill, full auto.

 

[FishDFly]

"I’ll ask one more time. What is the opinion of those who have actually hunted cats with hounds? Do you agree with the OP’s guide that a 32 caliber RB is sufficient and ethical? Believe we have heard enough speculation and seen sufficient Google search results from the keyboard jockeys who have never hunted mountain lions chased by hounds. Time for those with actual experience. Speak up please."

Seems time for the fat lady to sing as asked for again, it is not????

If not, time for the opera to end.

 

[Rat]

Well, I don't think we need to end a good discussion just because Mr. Grumpy wants us to, because he got out of the wrong side of the bed, or couldn't get to sleep, or had a bad day or something. He has the choice not to open the thread, and be annoyed by the keyboard jockeys who have never hunted cats with hounds. The opera will play out on it's own.

 

[Eterry]

If you're insisting on first-hand knowledge of this board's members who have hunted Panthers with hounds to speak up you may be in for a long wait. Unlike deer or hogs, which are plentiful and seen often, Panthers are shy, timid animals in very low numbers, and even fewer are hunted. My dad's friend said one lion will cover well over 100,000 acres of territory, and most folks live among them and never know it. He hunted them in 5 states , on the job. He had his own hounds which made him very popular among govt. administrators.

I promise you if i had hunted a panther with or without hounds i would've responded to this post. So it seems no one at this site has done that, or doesn't care to comment.

What i offered was the words of a trained professional with over 30years of experience, not bubba's ex wife's neighbor's barber's opinion.

I have a dvd of hunting Panthers with hounds; the lions i saw were fairly tired and exhausted. All were one shot kills. One hunter used a bow and cleanly killed the lion.

 

[mahkagari]

What i offered was the words of a trained professional with over 30years of experience, not bubba's ex wife's neighbor's barber's opinion.

I happen to know bubba's ex wife's neighbor's barber and I don't appreciate you disparaging his opinion.

 

[Rat]

I'll add that the original question involved ballistics, and the weapon it's self, more than drawing on the experience of someone or one person shooting a cat from a tree with a .32", which does not provide a vast amount of knowledge. A vast amount of knowledge and intelligent discussion was offered by many, (and it's okay if Bubba's ex wife's sister's cousin's barber contributes, he might know something!) as to the effectiveness, or lack of, concerning a .32" round ball rifle, and cougars in general, (a very big piece of the puzzle) and to diminish those contributions by calling people keyboard jockeys, to my mind, was an uncalled for insult. I would hope that apologies are forth coming....Mr.Grumpyman poopie pants.

 

[SDSmlf]

Mr. Grumpyman, aka poopie pants here. Apologies for the delay in apologies (have been up in the mountains for the past few days without internet or cell phone) for hurting feelings. Didn't mean to.

Have a few questions though on the 'vast amount of knowledge and intelligent discussion was offered by many'. Appears some are in favor of a larger caliber, up to '54 with 90 grains 2ff'. Someone else stated a '45 or bigger ....... Plus shooting straight up isn't easy either'. And if 'you use a 32, you either are going to have to make a head shot or a solid neck shot….' Multiple suggestions (or at least agreement) to using a maxi ball.

I have seen a couple of deer and a moose 'headshot'... in the jaw. Probably took a week or more for each to die. Me, if I didn't feel I could put a shot though the chest of a mountain lion almost directly overhead, I would not consider shooting, let alone taking a head shot, a much smaller target, but that is me. Always thought head shots at big game were unethical, not just a bad idea.... Curious why no one has objected (except for trophy damage) to this? Or is it just me?

I am nervous about sending a #1-1/2 buck shot almost straight up in the air, and would want to be sure of a solid hit and if at all possible a backstop. I own the bullet/round ball once shot until safely stopped. Now shooting a 54 caliber round ball with 90 grains of 2f behind it nearly straight into the air - not from poopie pants' gun. Will not even discuss shooting something like a maxiball or conical nearly straight up in the air (check out Fredericksburg, Ohio, 2011 incident). Thoughts? And no, I didn't run the ballistics, going with common sense here.

 

[WildBillJr]

I'm not sure you guys understand the ramifications of a treed cat. They are very tenacious. And kill! To take them lightly is a mistake. You definitely need to respect those teeth and claws! For me...in a tree or not... A .50 or .54 with 90- 100g of 3f is the way to get the job done. Cougars are a formidable opponent for sure! Ask the dogs. Just my .02.

 

[WildBillJr]

It sucks to see a good dog ripped stem to stern looking at you waiting for you to fix them. Nothing you can do.

 

[WildBillJr]

Arizona...you seem to understand.

 

[Rat]

I recant, and retract, and take back any reference inferring to any particular person as Grumpyman, poopie pants, or any other term or inference that in any way denotes a negative connotation, or and of any critique to said person. Or something like that.

 

[Rat]

Mr. Grumpyman, aka poopie pants here. Apologies for the delay in apologies (have been up in the mountains for the past few days without internet or cell phone) for hurting feelings. Didn't mean to.

Have a few questions though on the 'vast amount of knowledge and intelligent discussion was offered by many'. Appears some are in favor of a larger caliber, up to '54 with 90 grains 2ff'. Someone else stated a '45 or bigger ....... Plus shooting straight up isn't easy either'. And if 'you use a 32, you either are going to have to make a head shot or a solid neck shot….' Multiple suggestions (or at least agreement) to using a maxi ball.

I have seen a couple of deer and a moose 'headshot'... in the jaw. Probably took a week or more for each to die. Me, if I didn't feel I could put a shot though the chest of a mountain lion almost directly overhead, I would not consider shooting, let alone taking a head shot, a much smaller target, but that is me. Always thought head shots at big game were unethical, not just a bad idea.... Curious why no one has objected (except for trophy damage) to this? Or is it just me?

I am nervous about sending a #1-1/2 buck shot almost straight up in the air, and would want to be sure of a solid hit and if at all possible a backstop. I own the bullet/round ball once shot until safely stopped. Now shooting a 54 caliber round ball with 90 grains of 2f behind it nearly straight into the air - not from poopie pants' gun. Will not even discuss shooting something like a maxiball or conical nearly straight up in the air (check out Fredericksburg, Ohio, 2011 incident). Thoughts? And no, I didn't run the ballistics, going with common sense here.

Lot's of thoughts not thought of yet. See...the thread ain't dead yet. I totally agree on the head-shot thing. Blowing the snout off a deer, elk, bear or cougar is not a humane kill. The size of a cougar's brain is like a crab-apple...it's not a large target. Ain't no poop in your pants.