3F versus 2F in a .54

[Vaino]

Elk! The previous load has taken elk up to 127 yds w/o trailing and the next longest shot was at 107 yds. Also a few at closer distances. All went less than 50 yds after the shot. I'm impervious to big recoil which is just a matter of concentration and training.

The rifle is a Pecatonica Hawken made by me and I extended the warranty to include both loads.... :grin: ....Fred

 

[MSW]

i agree with BrownBear ... try both and go with what works best in your particular rifle ... that's aprt of the fun: there is no way of knowing until you get out and try it.

make good smoke!

 

[tg]

Many, myelf included have gone to 3f in most calibers I used it in a .72, this is due to the reduced fouling for the most part and I found accuracy nearly the same with both, your gun willl tell you about that part of the diffewrence twixt the two. Years ago I use a mix of both powders 50/50 and it worked very well but quit when I used up all my 2. This may be something to try there is no down side to it the powders do not seperate as the Mad Monk determined in some seperation tests with the mixed powders, as for max oads each gun manufacture will have the data to tell you when to stop.

 

[DUSTY 14]

Herb my fiance says RED GREEN would approve of your scope mount on that rifle you was shooting.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Back in my anal days, when finding the center of the 'Xs' was more important than life itself, I believed some things about powder that were really more myth than fact.
I used powders for target shooting only from the same batch as long as the supply lasted. I would not use much more than about 3/4 of a pound can for fear the bottom had dust that had settled. (yes, I turned the can and mixed. Did you forget the part where I said I was anal? :wink: )
I used 3Fg in some rifles that worked well only with 3Fg, or so I thought. Same with 2Fg in other rifles.
Enneyhow, I didn't waste powder and would mix the leavings in my powder horns for hunting.
Guess what? It worked.
Difference in accuracy was something like going from 50-5X to 50-3X. Both of which I seldom shot in competition enneyhow. :redface:
Now, I use 3Fg for the same reasons others have stated. A bit more economical and cleaner.
Some things you just don't have to sweat.

 

[Cheyenne]

Elk!
The rifle is a Pecatonica Hawken made by me and I extended the warranty to include both loads.... :grin: ....Fred

Glad to know that's a hawken load! Sorry Fred, but when I think of you, a slim Bucks County rifle instantly comes to mind, and that heavy load would be scary in a Bucks Coumnty rifle! :wink:

 

[Vaino]

I've built some .54 cal. Bucks County LRs and w/ a 1-1/16 breech they should be OK w/ those big loads....but, no reason to load that heavy...they won't be going elk hunting. Yss...the Hawken is quite comfortable w/ the stated big loads and the accuracy would be sufficient for squirrels. Now build all the BCs w/ Rice's .50 cal., "B" weight X 46" lg bbls.....very slender LRs.....Fred

 

[Cheyenne]

.... Now build all the BCs w/ Rice's .50 cal., "B" weight X 46" lg bbls.....very slender LRs.....Fred

Yes, your BC's are works of art, really enjoy seeing them, love the lines! :hatsoff:

 

[Dphar]

I am thinking about experimenting with some 3F loads in my .54 but don't really know what the equivalent load should be. I currently shoot 2F using 50 grs for targets and 90 grs for hunting. I'm assuming a smaller load for 3F, but what would an equivalent 3F load be? Is there a general rule of thumb for this?

Thanks.

Shooting 50 grains is not likely the win many prizes if you shoot against people who work up accurate loads. Shoot the gun for accuracy and see what it likes.

I have a 17 3/4 pound chunk 50 cal rifle I have increased to 120 grains of FFF Swiss from 109.
But its got a Gun Barrel Quality 4150 alloy barrel.
It shoots this load very well. Won $35 in a match today. Shot a 10 shot string measure match at 60 yards plank rest. Average deviation from center was less than .8". Its not the best string I have shot with the rifle but it was good enough to talk most of the prize money. The rifle has won about 240 dollars in 5 matches its been used in.

As a friend of mine said last month during a class on accurate muzzlwloaders at our MT Historical Gunmaker's Guild Fair, "If you want to get your rifle shooting well enter matches where you are shooting for a s**t load of money."

This is an aspect of shooting that is largely lost on modern ML shooters. Back in the day people shot for prizes. Sometimes EXTREMELY high stakes where men would put up $1000 (pretty common) or even $10000 on a side. 10000 in pre-Civil War America was a LOT of money.
Gunsmiths would build special rifles for "grudge matches". Why? The guy that won could make a reputation that might last a lifetime, plus win the bet.

Many shooters today expect too little from their rifles.

Dan

 

[VEARL]

Since 1978, I have had rifles that didn't produce burnt patches in the slower rate of twist barrels.
In my 1 in 48 twist barrels, it seems that without a buffer patch I would get burnt patches no matter what thickness I used.
Maybe in all of our years of shooting, we were getting piss poor patching material. Never really know where your patch material iscoming from these days.
Anyway ...they work for me and that is all that matters to me. Everyone to his own.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Rate of twist is not a factor with ball/patch/bore fit issues. Patch burning is a factor of fit with the ball and patch in a given bore. Bores do vary in size. Even factory made rifles will vary slightly within the same model.
I don't know what you used for patching. For many years mine was denim and oversized balls. I used a bigger hammer then to seat. :shocked2: Finding Xs are no longer the most important thing in my life. I now use .020 ticking, smaller ball and smaller hammer.
Only burning I recall was a period I used a thin red duck material. Very soft and thin. Wuthuless.
Enneyhow, wat ever floats yer stick, go fer it.

 

[BrownBear]

Maybe in all of our years of shooting, we were getting piss poor patching material. Never really know where your patch material iscoming from these days.

You said a mouthful there! :shocked2:

Buddy of mine bought the end of a bolt of ticking from our local Walmart when they shut down their fabric department, and I bought a whole bolt cuzz I use it for bag lining as well as patches. He suddenly was getting shredded patches with his usual loads. We tried again with patches from my bolt, and everything was fine. Remember, both came from the same rack in the same store!

Happy ending, I traded him some of mine for his, then used it for bag lining. So far, no blown linings! :rotf:

 

[ebiggs1]

“... where you are shooting for a s**t load of money. ...”
Many shooters today expect too little from their rifles.

Many shooters today see it as, what it really is, a hobby. Not everything has to be turned into a money making scheme. Some things are done just because we like doing them. :thumbsup:

 

[Rifleman1776]

He suddenly was getting shredded patches with his usual loads. We tried again with patches from my bolt, and everything was fine. Remember, both came from the same rack in the same store!

Did you read the labels on the end of the bolt? One might have come from Bangledesh, the other from Egypt or Alabama.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I'm assuming a smaller load for 3F, but what would an equivalent 3F load be?

You see the "10%" rule cited often nowadays, but when I first got interested in B.P. shooting back in the `70s, the rule of thumb was to increase by 1/3 when going from 3Fg to 2Fg, which is equivalent to decreasing by 1/4 when going from 2Fg to 3Fg. This was with references going back into the 19th century. The data that Herb provided is much closer to that than to 10% going either way. The data in the various muzzle loading and cartridge loading handbooks where comparable barrels and projectiles are loaded with both ganulations of the same manufacture give differences ranging from 5% to 50% for similar muzzle velocities, but the averages are close to the old `reduce by 25%` rule of thumb but with the pressure for the 3Fg load always higher than for the comparable 2Fg load. Now, this is just for velocity, and says nothing of accuracy or point of impact in any particular gun. You might want to read the full thread that Herb's post came from. Ultimately, you still have to make a starting guess and then find what YOUR gun likes with a particular powder.

Regards,
Joel

 

[VEARL]

Maybe I should try another patch lube and leave that 10% gasoline out of the mix. :rotf:
Maybe I can get some good patching material from Fredrick's of Hollywood. Discarded silk undies might work.

 

[BrownBear]

He suddenly was getting shredded patches with his usual loads. We tried again with patches from my bolt, and everything was fine. Remember, both came from the same rack in the same store!

Did you read the labels on the end of the bolt? One might have come from Bangledesh, the other from Egypt or Alabama.

Funny part was, they were labeled the same.

 

[Rifleman1776]

He suddenly was getting shredded patches with his usual loads. We tried again with patches from my bolt, and everything was fine. Remember, both came from the same rack in the same store!

Did you read the labels on the end of the bolt? One might have come from Bangledesh, the other from Egypt or Alabama.

Funny part was, they were labeled the same.

Musta been made in union shops. One on a Monday. :rotf: