3rd model dragoon

[JackAubrey]

I have oft heard it said the m1860/Remington 1858 and similar sized percussion gun will develop approximately the equivalent ballistics of a standard .38 special round.If this is correct ,does anyone know what the ballistics of a third model dragoon would be comparable to?Possibly a .38 special +p?Thanks in advance,J.A.

 

[dboone]

I think personally that ballistics in the case of blackpowder firearms doesn't hold true to the damage that the weapons do to the human body. 36 cal. Killed alot of people but by todays standards its looked at like a weak round and it got the job done. We (I think deal in over kill) today and more power is what people want when its not neccessary unless you trying to kill a car or something. Just my opinon about the matter.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

It's often said that the Walker was the most powerful handgun until the .357 magnum appeared around 1934 or so. That would make it more potent than the .45 Colt or .45 ACP cartridge. The Dragoons aren't that far behind the Walker in power, so maybe they fall between the .45 cartridges and the .357. As mentioned, those lead balls seem to be effective beyond what one would expect from the paper ballistics.

 

[slashcat]

I believe,when you crunch the numbers,the 3rd model dragoon is about equal to the modern 44 special in power.

 

[Wes/Tex]

If you can find a copy, the February, 1998, issue of "Handguns" magazine had a detailed article on the comparable ballistics of percussion revolvers. Using Taylor's ballistic tests, which figures terminal ballistics better than most provious lists uses the actual "Stretch Cavity" and "Crush Cavity" in ballistic gelatin and compared known cartridge effeciency (Fuller Index)in One-Shot-Stop ability from militry and police files. The results are extremely revealing. Not to waste a lot of space I'll just run down the most popular guns we use:

.36 1851 Navy...59%--.380 Auto H.P....58%
.44 1860 Army...75%--.44 Special lead H.P...73%
(1848 Dragoon)..85%
.44 Walker......87%--.41 Mag. 175 gr. H.P...89%

Compare with solid projectiles from era molds:

.36 Navy...45% (compared with 59% for round ball)
.44 Army...64% (compared with 75% for round ball)
.44 Walker...71% (compared with 87% for round ball)

The most interesting comparison was the 1860 Army with round ball compared to the .45 Colt with 255 round nose, flat point bullet which showed 780 fps and 345 foot-lbs. energy. The cartridge gun was 155 fps slower but 71 foot-lbs. more powerful. Problem is that the round ball load penetrated 8 inches less, dumping it's energy in the target and had a "Stretch Cavity" 75% larger than the .45 Colt round! Translation: Cartridge .45 has 69% one-shot-stop on the Fuller Index while the 1860 had 75% from a chamber of powder and a rouond ball! Interesting, huh?

 

[JackAubrey]

Thank you,Gentlemen,particularly Mr.Wes/Tex.Very interesting numbers,very interesting indeed.I was surprised to see the M1860 score so highly.I did shot a watermelon(got the idea from R.Lee Ermy on mail cal,haha)w/ my 1851 navy .36.It was impressive to say the least.A few years ago I had to dispatch a feral dog that had killed some of my livestock.I used my pietta M1860.While it did kill the devil,it was not a pleasant experience.I find it curious the round ball out performs the other projectiles.Thanks again guys.best regards,J.A.

 

[mec]

Here are some Uberti dragoon loads with various charges and powders. The first number is the velociy in fps and the second is extreme spread over 5 or 6 rounds:
140 grain ball
.454 Ball 45 Grains Goex FFFg 881 fps 19
.457 Ball 50 Grains Goex FFFg 890 37
.454 Ball 50 Grains Swiss FFFg 1217 51
.457 Ball 40 Gr./Vol.Pyrodex P 1030 56
.454 Ball 45 Gr./Vol.Pyrodex P 1157 55
.454 Ball 45 Gr./Vol.Pyrodex RS 869 85
190-Grain Buffalo Bullet
40 Grains Swiss FFFg 976 62
200 -Grain Lee Conical Bullet
35 Grains Goex FFFg 967 26
35 Gr./Vol.H777 1101 66
35 Gr./Vol. Pyrodex P 1066 57
40 Gr./Vol. Swiss FFFg 1043 33
_______
and the same for some 60 army loads from a couple of different guns
Loads 140-141 Grain Ball Velocity Spread/6rounds
28 Grains Goex FFFg Second Generation Colt822 55
28 Grains Goex FFFg Uberti 871 104
35 Grains Goex FFFg Second Generation Colt855 37
35 Grains Swiss Uberti 1031 48
Same Load Different Day1020 34
40 Grains Goex FFFg 992 34
40 grains Goex FFFg with Wonder Wad 942 30
40 Grains Swiss FFFg 1042 49
40 Grains Swiss FFFg with Wonder Wad 1055 80
180 Grain Bullet Dixie Mould
28 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P 821 50
28Gr/Vol Goex FFFg 649 81
200 Grain Lee Conical
28 Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P 967 46
35 Grains Goex FFFg 753 46
to get ft/lbs of energy go, velocity x velocity x bullet weight/ 450240.

 

[Wes/Tex]

You & Wild Bill at 75 yds! :thumbsup:

 

[Jac Spring]

Hey great stuff -thanks for posting that.

I doubt that you are worried much by the slight diff in poi vs poa, but I was wondering if a slight rotation of the barrel to the right (I mean slight) would be possible to correct that? Or would the loading lever catch move too much?

That's what I did with my Ruger Vaqueros to get them spot on.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Some years back me and a buddy were camped on a remote mountain in Northern Henderson county and doing some shooting. I had my '58 Rem 'Buffalo 12" barrel loaded with Lee conical slugs and my buddy his 4" barrel .357 with Ren. 125 semi-jacket hollow points. we shot into scrub jack pines comparing penetration and my '58 Rem. blew on thru while his .357 was stopped by the tree. sort of like comparing apples and oranges I suppose but it still says that the conical loaded '58 Rem. has some power. I was using a .32 acp caseful of 4F under main charge of 3F for powder load. from what I could tell this load has more 'kick' than my Gov't. .45 ACP. Also I took a small wild hog with this load and if I had got a shot at a large one I would have taken it. I took a 300 lb.er with my ROA and hot loaded Lee conical, complete pass-thru chest shot at 25 paces.

 

[mec]

"I doubt that you are worried much by the slight diff in poi vs poa, "

Not a bit. With the sun at a different angle, it might have gone the other way. I was just happy to land five of six on the silhouette. Actually I fired two six shot groups at the same distance with a 61 navy and got five out of six both times with that. This was from a standing two handed position. The enormity of the luck involved in hitting those targets 15 out of 18 times impressed me so much that I haven't tried it again.

 

[Jac Spring]

"I doubt that you are worried much by the slight diff in poi vs poa, "

Not a bit. With the sun at a different angle, it might have gone the other way. I was just happy to land five of six on the silhouette. Actually I fired two six shot groups at the same distance with a 61 navy and got five out of six both times with that. This was from a standing two handed position. The enormity of the luck involved in hitting those targets 15 out of 18 times impressed me so much that I haven't tried it again.

I would consider that excellent shooting with a modern, target sighted long barreled revolver!

You are entirely correct about the light affecting those brass front sights - could easily move your group that much one way or the other. Didn't know what conditions you were shooting in...

Thanks again for the great load information!

I just listed two of my existing gun collection pieces for sale on gb and ordered a 3rd model dragoon from dixie along with a Lee conical mould.
Hope my other guns sell! :shocked2: :winking:

Acutally, I orderd the "army" version - not sure the diff between that and the other 3rd model they list... roll markings on the cylinder maybe? Either way, I will be happy.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Hey Blizzard! In my tests using a .357 mag and a .44 mag, the hollow points seemed to fill-up with wood where as the round nose and JSP rounds went on through. It's not hard to imagine this happening with RB or conicals as they release all of their energy as they pass-through a target, instead of trying to expand and not go through.

Dirty Harry didn't use HP either :haha: . He said he wanted better penetration :rotf: . Keep on making the SMOKE, Dave

 

[mykeal]

Acutally, I orderd the "army" version - not sure the diff between that and the other 3rd model they list... roll markings on the cylinder maybe? Either way, I will be happy.

The "military" version is set up so a shoulder stock can be added. Note the screw head on the right side of the frame above the trigger; there is another on the left side in the same location. They simply provide a location for two ears on the stock to attach to; they have no function with respect to the revolver action.

 

[mark_fare]

Where can you buy the shoulder stock for the 3rd Mdl Dragoon?

 

[Jac Spring]

Acutally, I orderd the "army" version - not sure the diff between that and the other 3rd model they list... roll markings on the cylinder maybe? Either way, I will be happy.

The "military" version is set up so a shoulder stock can be added. Note the screw head on the right side of the frame above the trigger; there is another on the left side in the same location. They simply provide a location for two ears on the stock to attach to; they have no function with respect to the revolver action.

OIC - thanks! - and I bet you can buy a shoulder stock at Dixie.

Well, I guess I'll be ready to go sbr with this if I get the urge - but that's highly unlikely :winking:

ETA - hooray - one of my auctions has a bid already! Its a good time to sell guns on the auctions

 

[Wes/Tex]

Where can you buy the shoulder stock for the 3rd Mdl Dragoon?

I don't know of anybody making them right now. They were available in the past and Navy Arms made a Dragoon with a 16 or 18 inch barrel and a screw-on shoulder stock. Some of the originals even had a canteen inside the stock. Not sure if the ones for the 1860's Army revolvers can be fitted or not.

 

[Jac Spring]

Not at Dixie either - took a look the last time I was "there" online.

And BTW, as mentioned, mine is the "military" not "army" version. You guys know your stuff!

The shoulder stock would be a nice collectible but not very practical from what I've read about other shoulder stocked pistols - they dont' really do much for accuracy, wich is counterintuitive as you'd think they'd really steady the pistol for firing. But I guess you're still shooting off your hind legs...

 

[mec]

I've never seen a dragoon replica set up for a shoulder stock. Plenty of originals had them though. Dixie and others do sell stocks for the military model 60 army and 61 Navy. I've found they provide a slight advantage over shooting one-handed but none over using a two hand grip. I sat down on the ground and doctored a silhouette at 80 yards with my stocked navy and got the same five out of six hits I'd been getting with two hands standing. The stock is a bit steadier but you loose sight clarity because of the shortened distance from you're eyes.
Same five out of six I got with a two-handed hold

 

[Jac Spring]

Well, it may not improve your hit ratio but it does improve your cool factor
Nice lookin rig there!