41 cal picket bullet

[pjogrinc]

Have just picked up an old percussion target rifle with vernier tang and windage front, false muzzle and pointed bullet seater. The twist is 1 in 34 and the bore is almost perfect! Bore measures approximately .412 and grove is .418
I've never played with a picket style bullet before and need some help and suggestions as what to shoot in it and recommended loads. Have plenty of experience with 58 cal mini, 36 and 44 cal pistols. Just can not seem to find info on loading and shooting this puppy! Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. TNKS, Pat

 

[paulvallandigham]

TOO BAD THE BULET MOLD WAS SEPARATED FROM THE RIFLE.

I think ou are going to have to find someone to make you a custom mold for that gun. If you can find a cast bullet for a .41 Magnum pistol, you may be able to modify the mold to change the shape of the nose , and then you would be in business. The .41 mags. shoot a .410 diameter bullet. Cast, they come out .411 to .412, which is what you need. That has very shall grooves in it-- .003" per side, from what you are reporting. That makes this a last half of the 19th century gun. The false muzzle indicates it was intended for target shooting.

The other thing to do is first check the condition of the bore of the gun. If its pitted from neglect, you might want to consider having it bored out to a larger caliber, where you can find a mold for a bullet cheaper than ordering a custom mold. You can also look at the small, .390, and even smaller diameter balls and bullet, particularly those with hollow bases, and then paper patch those bullets to fit your bore. With a false muzzle, seating those paper patched bullets will be easy, and you should get very good accuracy.

Thanks for trying to save an old gun. When they are still in pretty good condition, they deserve to be fired. Just use Black Powder only in the thing. Start at about 35 grains of FFFg, and work up to about 50 max. Be as nice to this old gun as you want to be treated at that same age, and it will serve you well.

 

[arquebus]

That's great, would love to see some pictures!! Do you have a copy of Ned Roberts' book 'The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle'? It deals alot with picket bullets & their loading. Alot, if not most, of those guns were designed for use with either a paper or linen patch, sometimes even a cross-patch which used two pieces of paper that were laid in the false starter to form an X which the bullet was started on. Your false muzzle should give you some clue as to which type of patch is required.
As to a mould, once you have determined the style of mould you want, you might try Mountain Moulds[url] http://www.mountainmolds.com/[/url] they allow you to use an online CAD program to design your own mould, and prices are quite reasonable.
I am also emailing you with an email address of an acquaintance of mine in Ohio who does a LOT of work with picket rifles, etc., I'm sure he'll be able to give you some good tips.
Good luck &, please, try & post some photos!

 

[pjogrinc]

I'll post some pictures of it once I get it back together. It currently is taking a bath in WD40 to slowly soften up some of the gunk on the outside and front sight threads, it's just packed with crude. Front sight widage knob has some stampings on it, but I cant make them out yet. Then it's into a bath of #9 for a couple of days. There is a strange trigger on the gun, no return spring provision on the trigger. It is a single trigger set with adjusting screw. The trigger is disengaged once the hammer is released and stays back. The hammer does not appear to to have a half cock position either, no damage visable. Push the trigger forward and it clicks into position and you can now cock the hammer.

The bore, visual with a LED light on long wires shows no damage or rust pitting. There was some 'fresh' light orange rust dust in the bore. It was recently cleaned by the person that I obtained it from for cleaned it for inspection purposes. Quick swipe with a dry cleaning patch made it all disappear. Doubled up cleaning patch and slowly ran it down the bore and there was no rough spots !!

I will do a 'true' bore slug once I make a proper lead slug with it drilled, so I can remove it from the bore once I get it down 1/2 way.

There unfortunately is no markings on the gun that I can find as of yet. Maybe after the gunk is removed.

 

[eelclam]

1 in 32 twist is a bit slow for a picket style bullet in 40 cal 1 in 18 or 20 would be more common for a stuechen type target rifle. Lyman has a .430" diameter, 240 grain, bullet that could probably be sized down in steps to work. At 1 in 32 the optimal bullet length is .6 inches at 1100 fps and .75 inches at 1600 fps. Are you positive on the twist rate?

 

[Blizzard of '93]

don't wish to hi-jack the thread eelspike but can you tell me what bullet length is best for a .50 1-48 twist? I'm going to expeirment with concals as all I have shot has been PRB, it does OK I can get 2-3" groups at 50 yds and have lucked into little better a time or 2 but wish to try conicals for hogs maybe I have used double PRB loads.

 

[eelclam]

with a velocity of 1100 fps .6 inches and with 1600 fps .75 inches. Load data for a fifty cal. 1 in 48 is a comprimise twist it shoots round ball well with moderate loads and conicals well with heavier loads. Bullets over .75 inches are going to be to long to stabilize well with that twist.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Uuuummm :hmm: I'll give it a try, thanks for info. Blizzard.

 

[pjogrinc]

I thought, probably wrong, that a round ball twist for a 40 cal rifle was around 1 in 60. I'll double check about noon. If it is the correct roundball twist, that will make it even easier to get a mold. I have the front sight partially ungunked. The brass adjusting knob has the following stamped in it. It would be nice if it is correct, but my luck it has been replaced with something else. The front soght windage knob says "Collins Patent Sep, 1x(looks like a possible 3), 1865" I tried to post some pictures but did not succeed. Any of you can email me with a way to do it.

 

[pjogrinc]

Okay guys, thanks for keeping me on my toes. I double checked it and it came out at 38 ?????? What the heck!! Found that my cleaning rod tip, nylon, was stripped. It took a wile to get it out of the barrel, but I did. The twist on this rifle barrel came out at 1 in 21.2 inches after 3 measurements and then averaging them.

So if that is correct and I use the Greenhill Formula, the max bullet length would be about 1.2 inches and maximum weight of 370 grains.

Does this compare to what you more experienced shooters think is right ??

Okay, what about powder charge ??