Joe Mandt said:
I didn't say he LIKED the 4 bores. I quoted his saying they "drove better" than anything he ever used. Nobody would like shooting a 12-14 pound 4 bore with 15-20 drams of powder. He stated that the guns effected his shooting for the rest of his life. But they were still effective. How much fun they were to shoot is irrelevant.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/videoclips/4bore_proper_240x180x12fps.mov
This is a 4 bore BL double that likely weighs about double what Selous' duck guns did".
This is the same or similar gun when in "doubles"
http://www.doublegunshop.com/videoclips/4bore_ouch_240x180x12fps.mov
These BL guns used RBs or very short conicals weighing little more than the RB.
Selous was nearly crippled and was scarred for life when his bearer loaded a second charge on top of the first when one his guns missed fire. Of course when double loaded it fired.
I have no reference to Selous using 7mm on Elephant. But he very easily could have. But 7x57 does not use lead bullets and BP either.
Bell used small bores extensively, even 6.5mm, but he did not hunt them at close quarters according to Taylor and others. There are places in Africa where 20 yards is a long shot. 10 yards more the norm. Or so I have read. Bell was killing Elephant at 50-100 yards from ladders in tall grass. (Nothing taken away from Bell he was one of the greats and an exceptional rifle shot). IIRC he used larger bores in close cover.
The 762x39 and the 762 Nato have killed a lot of elephant too. But facing a charges at 20-30 feet I would want something bigger.
A 400NE or bigger or something like a 6 or 4 bore ML is needed. Though an AK or a FN will allow quick follow up shots if you have time.
Very large game is an excellent test of firearms.
Sure the 30-06 or 6.5 Swede will kill elephants with headshots. But if the animal is very close and you miss the brain its likely you will become a statistic.
Sir Samuel Baker had a 4 or 6 bore that used a belted balls. It was his "devil stopper" and never failed him. He determined to try a conical in it that was about 1 ounce heavier and it got him into "such scrapes" (this means the Elephant(s) either nearly killed him or someone in his party or did, "scrapes" with Elephant are often fatal) that he determined that the conical was useless.
He did use conicals in his smaller bore BL rifles later and was responible for the great .577 BPE which he used extensively.
BUT BREECH LOADERS are not MLs. Breech loaders allow HARDENED BULLETS, conicals in ML are soft. As Turner Kirkland found out soft lead and Elephants are a bad mix. He shot an African Elephant with a 4 bore with pure lead RBs. Got massive expansion but little penetration. 24" or so is not much on elephant. He should have read Baker or Forsythe or Taylor rather than thinking he was shooting a Kentucky rifle as a whitetail. Had he used hardened balls he would have gotten much better pentration.
One point of my posting in this conversation is the "issues" that arise when a sliding fit bullet is used in a ML. They move in the bore far more easily than a cloth patched ball or picket.
I believe this is the reason that bullets of this type were not used extensively outside of rifle matches and military "back in the day".
The second was "traditional" rifles and 777. Its an oxymoron. Its like saying 30 grains of 4198 is a traditional 1870s load for 45-70.
The guy that started this post is doing the same thing on other forums. HE IS FISHING FOR CUSTOMERS to buy his book or whatever he is going to be selling.
He is "testing" things anyone with a brain already knows works. Its redundant and frankly its just more "high performance ML" drivel.
I personally think, for example, that a 40-70 BN Sharps weighing about 9 pounds with FFG BP and a 270-300 grain FP PP bullet of 1:40 alloy is the IDEAL BPCR deer caliber. Its will work just as well on elk with a 300-370 grain. I KNOW how well it works. I don't need to test it I used one in real life.
BUT ITS NOT A ML.
The bottom line is this. If you live in the east and the law allows it a 40 caliber RB will work for deer if you hunt from a stand and shoot 20-30 yards. There is no magic bullet.
You need several things in a hunting rifle.
Accuracy. It should shoot ragged holes (about 1" at 50 maybe 1.5-2" at 100.
Flat trajectory. It should shoot flat enough to be on a deer with a center hold to 120-130 yards (where I live, regions vary)
It must have ADEQUATE penetration. The RB meets this criteria. But shooting animals in the butt is not good policy. My 6.5 Swede will shoot through deer endways as far as I can hit one as will a 50-70 or a 54 percussion sharps with a "Christmas tree" bullet. Round balls as used by most people will not. So you have to pick your shot.
It should be of a suitable size for the game. I think 50 is an excellent minimum for Deer.
54 for elk.
Bigger stuff, bigger balls. From reports from Canadian hunters the .69 or 75 (540 gr +- ball) is just dynamite on moose.
If you hunt in parts of the west bordering Yellowstone or other G-bear habitat you may have "competition" for the animal you have shot. So I like something with a larger bore for hunting in the mountains.
If the hunter uses an adequate ball size and can shoot the animal is going to die. Some will run off to various distances some will fall right over. Just like people some are tougher than others.
Shoot what you want, but don't tell me that shooting a slug backed by 777 is a "traditional ML hunting load". Its not.
Almost anyone in the US can get 5 pounds of BP shipped to them. Its not any more dangerous to store than gas for your lawn mower all hype to the contrary is BS.
I just ordered a case and it arrived in 2 shipping days.
You wanna shoot bullets, go for it. We need more shooters and hunters. But remember what you see and read today about guns and bullets etc etc. Modern or "archaic" its often something written to sell a product and while true may not be "accurate".
I know hunting is darned tough in some areas.
I shot 1 deer with the ML last year and 4 with the Swede. Killed the 4 in the last few days of the season as the pressure relaxed. Tough going on public land in the region where my doe tags were for. Lots of private places closed off, leased to outfitters etc. I hunted hard last year (about 30 miles of walking)and the year before (about 50 miles). Could put on 6-8 miles in a day in good spots last year and see NOTHING.
Had Blue Tongue in the Whitetails and Antelope to the north so this cut into opportunity.
I had given away a lot of deer meat and the freezer had to be filled. Closest shot at a doe was about 250 yards.
Need to be practicing my engraving.
Dan
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