.45 cal maxi in a 13/16 " barrel

[columbia]

Hi all
Can or should a 200+- grain maxi/conical be fired in a Green Mountain 13/16" .45 cal. barrel. This is from a flintlock. Is this a safe practice. The reason is to surpass the ballistics of a .45 cal. round ball.
Thanks JB

 

[750k2]

I would think twist would be the major player here
I think the bbl would stand up to the psi's just fine
but maybe someone in here knows more.
:imo:

 

You don't state the powder charge you wish to use, so it's not a blanket answer as far as safety goes. However, whether the load will be accurate will depend on the twist rate of the rifling in the barrel. If you have a slow-twist barrel, the conical will tumble because the twist isn't fast enough to stabilize it.

You wish to "surpass the ballistics of the roundball"... may I ask why?

 

I second that...WHY? If you are concerned about ballistics, use a .30-30 or .30-06.....a traditional muzzleloader has limitations and should be used with that in mind! If you want to "reach out" or "hammer'm" like the gun mags talk about with modern weapons, USE A MODERN WEAPON! A .45 with a roundball and moderate charge will cleanly kill deer sized game at under 100 yd ranges. If you want elk, move up in caliber and charge. If you want .375 H&H power, use a .375 H&H! Sorry, pet peeve.... :sorry:

You don't state the powder charge you wish to use, so it's not a blanket answer as far as safety goes. However, whether the load will be accurate will depend on the twist rate of the rifling in the barrel. If you have a slow-twist barrel, the conical will tumble because the twist isn't fast enough to stabilize it.

You wish to "surpass the ballistics of the roundball"... may I ask why?

 

[Java Man]

My experience with Green Mountain bbls was excellent accuracy with tightly patched round balls. Like stated above, the round ball will do fine on deer under 100yds. If you wish to hunt something bigger, you'll want a little more projectile weight. I expect accuracy to suffer with a conical out of that bbl. :imo:


Java Man

 

[Rebel]

If you want better ballistics than a .45 cal. round ball get a .50 or .54 cal rifle.

 

[Tahquamenon]

A guy asks a question and is mostly asked why he asks the question? I find it frustrating in the least when it happens to me. :shake:

Yes, you can safely shoot a light conical from a .45 caliber 13/16" Green Mountain Flintlock barrel.

The 13/16" being on the smaller end of things, you will need to moderate your powder charges accordingly as the 13/16" is not the mass of thicker ,heavier barrels.

The rifling for the barrel is also a question.

I'm guessing you have the 13/16" Black Powder Muzzleloader Barrels - Octagon rifle barrels 13/16" across the flats, 36" or 42" long. - 36" .45 Cal. 1:60" Twist 5/8-18 Breech.

If you do have the 1:60" rifling, then you are going to need to stay with a fairly short projectile or it could likely tumble down range.

If you are looking for a bit more punch down range with 1:60" rifling, try a 200 grain ball-et conical.

"Buffalo Ball-Ets."

"This extraordinary projectile combines all of the advantages of a conical bullet with the ease of loading a round ball, except no patch is needed!. The BALL-ET is a half ball and half bullet, pre-lubricated and ready to use. It has more energy than a round ball, easier to load than a sabot and has a higher velocity than a conical. Exceptional accuracy can be obtained in both fast and slow twist barrels. The BALL-ET is ideal for target shooting, plinking and hunting."

.45 Caliber Ball-et
200 Gr. 89-45-200
$8.55
http://possibleshop.com/ball-bullet.htm

I called GMR and got the following information:
The heavier projectile will not be a problem with the 13/16" .45 cal barrel.

Goex lists 80grains 2FG for a .45 & a conical. http://www.goexpowder.com/load-chart.html
Schuetzen lists 50-90 grains 3Fg and 50-100 grains 2Fg for a .45 conical http://www.elephantblackpowder.com/loadingdata.html

I shoot Swiss 3FG powder, which is likely one of the strongest BP's available. With a 200gr Ball-et and your barrel, I would start with about 40gr with a max of about 70gr.

There are other .45 caliber conical that you could try as well. I shoot several conical's with slower twist 1:66" rifling in 50 cal and the accuracy is actually pretty decent (inside 6"/100yards). You might find that they shoot well enough for hunting in .45 cal.
T/C Maxi-Hunter and Ball. 255 & 240gr.
Powerbelt Aero-Tips 175, 195, 225

Take a look at www.midsouthshootersupply.com or www.cabelas.com

If in doubt, contact http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/

Good luck!

:thumbsup: :m2c: :imo:

 

[columbia]

thanks T
For the valuable info. I do have a .54 RB flint just wanted find out my options for the .45 since it has only about 450 fpe or so at 75 yds. It is 40" 1 in 60 twist GM barrel. I would much prefer to stick with RB.
Jeff

 

[harryo]

There are other .45 caliber conical that you could try as well. I shoot several conical's with slower twist 1:66" rifling in 50 cal and the accuracy is actually pretty decent (inside 6"/100yards). You might find that they shoot well enough for hunting in .45 cal.
T/C Maxi-Hunter and Ball. 255 & 240gr.
Powerbelt Aero-Tips 175, 195, 225

The 200 grn Lee REAL conicals might work also. I have no experience with them in a .45cal myself, but I have shot the short REAL conicals in both .50cal & .54cal slow twist barrels with very good accuracy.

 

[roundball]

A guy asks a question and is mostly asked why he asks the question? I find it frustrating in the least when it happens to me. :shake:

I agree...and I also thought you went the extra mile in providing a lot of good info
:thumbsup:

 

[Richard Allen]

If you decide to stick with roundballs in that 45 caliber Green Mountain barrel don't over look the larger balls.

My 42' GM percussion likes 65 grains of Goex fffg at 25 & 50 yards & 73 grains at 100 yards, a .010 thick patch (compressed measurement) lubed with Dutch Schoultz's 7:1 dry lube, and .451 balls.

Richard/Ga.

 

A guy asks a question and is mostly asked why he asks the question? I find it frustrating in the least when it happens to me. :shake:

Me too, and I didn't think about that when I posted. We get a lot of new folks on here who are just getting into the sport, and most of them may have some pre-conceived notions about what can and cannot be done with a round ball. Personally, I don't really care if somebody wants to shoot conicals or roundballs or handfulls of gravel, whatever floats their boat. However, when I see someone new on the forum asking about something like trying to shoot a conical out of a roundball barrel, I simply want to make sure he/she is well informed.

Trying to get good accuracy and better downrange ballistics with a conical out of a slow-twist barrel is an iffy proposition. Like others said, if you want to shoot conicals, get a conical barrel, or at least something in the middle of the road.

It was not my intent to offend or frustrate or argue about whether conicals are better than roundball.

 

In other words, you can increase your footpounds of energy and preformance on paper by using the conicals but it will do you absolutely no good on target since you will have virtually no chance of properly directing your projectiles to their intended mark.

Your increase in energy will be accmpanied by a decrease in stability, defeating your goal.

As has been said so many times before, shot placement is the key in using the .45.

:front:

 

[RiverRat]

I second what Tahquamenon said about Buffalo Ball-etts. I shoot 270gr .50cal in my 1:66 twist barrell with excellent 50yd groups, less than 1", from a bench.

 

My point, poorly made, I admit, was that a .45 rd ball shooter is a .45 rd ball shooter. IMHO we should use these rifles within their limitations. That is what the sport is all about. Too many want modern ballistic performance out of 18th century technology! If you want modern ballistics, use a modern gun!!! That is all I meant...ML hunting is quickly evolving towards modern gun hunting and the only point is to extend your modern gun capability into another season not originally envisioned for them!!!! You wouldn't use a classic longbow for a 200 yd shot on an elk would you? And I wouldn't use my .45 longrifle on the same shot either. In fact my .308Win proved to be marginal on the 200 yd shot elk that I got a few years back....everyone should learn the limitations of their weapons and use them accordingly. Overstuffing a .45 ML doesn't turn it into a long range big game rifle. :imo: :what:

A guy asks a question and is mostly asked why he asks the question? I find it frustrating in the least when it happens to me. :shake:

I agree...and I also thought you went the extra mile in providing a lot of good info
:thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

My point, poorly made, I admit, was that a .45 rd ball shooter is a .45 rd ball shooter. IMHO we should use these rifles within their limitations. That is what the sport is all about. Too many want modern ballistic performance out of 18th century technology! If you want modern ballistics, use a modern gun!!! That is all I meant...ML hunting is quickly evolving towards modern gun hunting and the only point is to extend your modern gun capability into another season not originally envisioned for them!!!! You wouldn't use a classic longbow for a 200 yd shot on an elk would you? And I wouldn't use my .45 longrifle on the same shot either. In fact my .308Win proved to be marginal on the 200 yd shot elk that I got a few years back....everyone should learn the limitations of their weapons and use them accordingly. Overstuffing a .45 ML doesn't turn it into a long range big game rifle. :imo: :what:

A guy asks a question and is mostly asked why he asks the question? I find it frustrating in the least when it happens to me. :shake:

I agree...and I also thought you went the extra mile in providing a lot of good info
:thumbsup:

Couldn't agree more...I always stay within manufacturer's publicly published load data for any caliber I use, including the .45cal which is argueably my favorite.

I think this individual was sensing the .45 ball might be on the light side for his purposes and correctly asked about .45cal conicals.

In spite of my love for round balls, there is also one caliber in which I like the Maxi-Hunters, and that's the .45cal 255grn version...tack drivers in TC's 1:48 barrels...also using published load data.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Shot placement is the key regardless of what you are shooting.

On the contrary, 1:56" and slower rifling will quite often shoot a short conical very well to even excellent. As also with the 58 & 69 caliber minnie ball and the snails pace rifling that was used for excellent accuracy downrange.

This is not an exception opinion but a widely proven fact.

I've three different 1:66" rifles that shoot conical's very well.

I often am hunting deer with a conical from a "PRB Shooter" to help ensure they get a passthrough for a decent blood trail, better ballistics on a quartering shot and for improved 100 yard effectiveness.
While this may not be "match grade target accuracy", inside of 3-6" at 100 yards is very acceptable accuracy for hunting purposes.

I agree, it's not PC.

I don't think anyone is looking to attain 50 caliber BMG ballistics here. I'm certainly not.

Perhaps all discussions in the flintlock category that are other than PRB should be in the modern ML category?

:m2c:

 

I agree, it is a 'modern' discussion and maybe that is what set me off on my pet peeve! Sorry. Shooting anything other than a round ball in a flintlock! BAH! HUMBUG! Of course it was done in Europe at least, with early experiments with conicals and weird shaped bullets..... :hatsoff: