45 caliber opinions

[Kentuckywindage]

A 45-70 used a 405gr conical VS a muzzleloaders 128gr round ball. Thats why the 45-70 is an excellent hunting rifle.

Just use a conical in your muzzleloader and the 'limits' of the .45 are pretty much gone.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Yep I use a foutyfive mini on Ohio whitetails. Years back when the eyes were better I used to take deer at 100yds plus,if I had a steady rest to steady the rifle. In fact one year using my wood pile I droped a large doe at 145 yrds, broke her back and crippled a button buck that was standing behind her. Two deer; one 45 min at 145 yrds; equaled over 125 lbs boneless meat with one shot. Now due to the eyes I don't shot over 50 yrds and the patched round ball works well.

 

[hanshi]

The deer I shot at 75 yards (with a .45 prb) was a through and through and it didn't go very far after that. The load, if memory serves me correctly, was 65 grains 3f from an H&A Heritage underhammer capgun. That was in a field. Being a woods hunter most of the rest were well under that distance. The only two shots further than that were taken in a hay field with .50s; one at 95 yds & the other well over the sacred 100 yds limit. They did no better than the .45s. I really like my petite .45 Lancaster and that's a big part of it. I've killed too many deer with the .22 Hornet rifle and .357mag revolver at distances up to 60 yards to thumb my nose at the .45. I will admit (grudgingly) that if (no, when) I order my dream deer & up rifle it will be a .54. I like the .54.

BrownBear, you are so right! Too many of these tyros are appallingly bad shots. I'm not that good a shot but I get as close as possible and pick my shots carefully. It's not fpe, especially with prb, but ball diameter and good shot placement that works.

 

[shmrck1]

Although I deer hunt with .50 & .54 my favorite
is one of my .45s. Basicly because that is the one I am most confident shooting and really no other reason.
snake-eyes :hmm:

 

[tg]

"Just use a conical in your muzzleloader and the 'limits' of the .45 are pretty much gone."

You mean to say you can get a traditional ML to shoot to modern largebore rifle ballistics by just using a heavy modern bullet? seems like the playing field is a bit lumpy :dead:

 

[jmac]

It's not the size of the Hole,it's where you put it that counts,(.45 will do it for me) :thumbsup:

True enough, but I do like those big holes and BIG blood trails...

John

 

[Dphar]

In my reading, I increasingly see writers saying a 45 caliber muzzleloader is a poor option for deer. These same writers think the 45-70 is a great option for almost all North American game. I understand that rate of twist and bullet weight have a significant impact on the outcome. But how can a 45 caliber muzzleloader be seen as a poor choice and the 45-70 be so great? It seems like most the writers either what loads used to kill Bison (350+ grain lead bullet) or saboted bullet. Does this seem irrational to anyone else? Thanks in advance for your opinions.

JD

The 45 RB will take deer reliably *within its range*.
The 45-54 round ball is range limited. Shots past 120-140 yards are a bad idea.

But to compare the 45-70 to a round ball you need to increase the RBs weight to about that of the 45-70. So a .615 to .69 RB needs to be used.
Comparing a 130+- grain RB to a 400 grain bullet skews everything.
When we change the ball diameter to one that weighs 350 to 450 grains we greatly increase the killing power, and these will actually out perform the black powder 45-70 on game *within their range*. A ball weighing about 450 grains cast of hardened lead was capable of killing Indian Elephant with brain shots using 138 grains (5 drams) of powder.
It was also suitable for other dangerous game such as Tiger. This from Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles" 1860. He maintained that at the ranges most game was shot the round ball, weight for weight, outperformed the conicals then in use. Sir Samuel Baker felt the same way from his writings of the time.
With *good shot placement* the 45 RB will kill deer to 120 yards or so. About as far as one should shoot at deer with the typical RB caliber.
I would rather have a 50 for deer but a 45 has proven itself as a deer killer for a very long time. A great many Colonial rifles were under 50 caliber for example. The 1792 Contract rifles for military use were 50 caliber....

I need to point out that it is fashionable to point out all the "short comings" of the RB so as to *sell* more of the various conicals and saboted bullets to people that don't know any better.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

A 45-70 used a 405gr conical VS a muzzleloaders 128gr round ball. Thats why the 45-70 is an excellent hunting rifle.

Just use a conical in your muzzleloader and the 'limits' of the .45 are pretty much gone.

Unless the conical moves off the powder and forms a bore obstruction.

Dan

 

[Tom Compton]

Old Story, you are correct. Follow the money.

Re 45 PRB vs 45-70, just shoot one of both in the same day and you will know why the 45-70 is adequate for anything in N America and the 45 PRB is minimum inj most states for little ole whitetails.

TC

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Thats the shooters job to find the proper fitting conical load. I know when i shoot conicals they normally load wit 25 to 40lbs pressure and never come off the charge.

 

[pchwcf50110]

.451" is my favorite ML caliber for bullet rifles. far superior to .50's. Whitworth's, Rigby's, Henry's, etc. 70-80 grains of powder with 450-530 gr. bullets are extremely accurate and have alot of punch at 200 yards.

 

[hanshi]

We keep hearing the warning from some that with the .45 you have to shoot carefully and accurately if you use prb on deer, especially at ranges beyond about 50 yards (hear this all the time about the .40). Otherwise, they say, you will just wound them and they will run for miles and die slowly. Well, NEWS FLASH! You have to use good shot placement with ANY gun when you shoot at deer. A deer hit badly with a .375 H&H will run just as far as one hit badly with a .243. Comparing the .45 prb with the 45/70 is irrelevant. I've killed my share of deer with a 45/70 and a 400 grain bullet and can attest that the shot has to be placed carefully as well.

Good shooting is what we-as muzzleloader hunters-simply do! We handicap ourselves and put great reliance on marksmanship. The killing range of the .45 prb (or any caliber) is a function of the SHOOTER, not the caliber or gun. That's how I see it, anyway.

 

[vern faulkner]

:thumbsup: Well spoken. Simple, plain, and right on the button. Vern

 

[roundball]

IMHO, I think it might not necessarily be all that simple, that there's actually a little more to it than that. Yes, shot placement is definitely a very important factor...but it is proportionally more important with smaller lighter projectiles with respect to the amount of bone and/or tissue a projectile has to travel through to get to the vitals.

I've killed deer with a heavy 325grn/.600" PRB using the only shot I had which was from from a rear quatering angle...to get to the heart I had to go through the left rear ham and everything forward...dead deer...could not have done that with a small little lightweight .40/.45cal, and more importantly I would not have tried...would have had to let him walk as no no better shot placement was offered.

Incidently, I knew this type of penetration would result because I had previously shot a buck straight into the chest with that load and the big ball stopped, bulging the hide on the right rear ham of that one...approximately 4 feet of travel, lacking a 1/2" of a complete pass through from stem to stern.

Same if you substituted a .243 vs. a .45-70...the .45-70 would have taken that buck through the rear ham forward just as well as the 325grn/.600" ball did, but the little .243 would not have so the shot would have been passed up.

So yes, all shot placement is important, but all shot placement is not equal...shot placement becomes ever more and more critical the smaller and lighter that the projectile is that's being used...to avoid bone, minimize the amount of tissue it has to traverse to get to & go through the vitals, etc.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I've got 3 .45s at the moment and 3 .62s and they are all keepers. But I hunt with the .62 caliber fowler or the .62 caliber rifle. The bigger ball packs more energy and makes a bigger entry and exit wouund in the event that tracking becomes necessary while at the same time reducing that possibility. I haven't noticed a difference in accuracy between the .45s and the bigger bores, but there's no questin that the power is much greater with the .62 caliber. I just wish I could use my swivel breech Jaeger for deer hunting here. Or my swivel breech .45 for that matter. Both are very traditional but illegal to use in the primitive season.

 

[BrownBear]

The big distinction for me is the willingness or restraint to pass up shots, along with the "opportunity" to do so.

I have no problem passing up shots, and in fact do so all the time. I just won't risk an even slightly marginal shot with any arm of any caliber.

The "opportunity" part comes into it because we have a very long season (5 months) and a generous bag limit. I love to hunt, but we honestly don't need more than one deer a year these days. I could finish my personal season in a day or two, but then spend the next four months and 29 days sitting at home. So I hunt lots, right up to the moment it's time to drop the hammer, then back off. Lots and lots of stalking and close encounters along the way, but it's a great season when I manage to put off the kill till the last hour of the last day.

Short season, scarce deer, trophy fever or limited time to hunt? I might not be nearly so inclined to pass up marginal shots, much less to pass on perfectly acceptable shots and stretch my season to the last day. I'd want as much range capability as possible, and enough bullet to do the job from any angle. Passing on shots would be a luxury I couldn't afford to indulge.

 

[paulab]

I can tell you about 45-70 penetration. At 1000 yards a 525 grain grease groove lead bullet will go THROUGH a 6 inch pine tree. I have seen this many times when sitting in the pits at long range matches held at camp grayling michigan. The bullets impact in a pine forest. The energy that those bullets have after traveling that far is downright scary! paul

 

[PaulN/KS]

I have mostly .54 calber rifles that I hunt with. I did get a nice Leman style halfstock in .45 that I would be willing to take deer hunting down in Oklahoma since the deer down there tend to be smaller than the ones up here in Kansas. I might try some of those conicals in the .45 and see how they shoot tho...
I agree, shot placement is important but I also believe in the old rule about bringing enough gun... :hmm:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I agree. Counting the regular season and the muzzleloading season, we have a fair amount of hunting time. So passing up shots is not a big deal. I don't trophy hunt either, and I'd rather get no deer at all than wound one. Besides, if I don't get a deer most of the men and some of the women in the family will, so I won't lack for venison. One of the nice things about getting older is being able to relax and just enjoy the hunt for its own sake.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I love my old .45-70. If I only had one breech loader, my sporterized 1879 Trapdoor would be it. But I just like my frontloaders so much more. If I want to use slugs, I can use my '63 Springfield or my '53 P-H Enfield 3 bander. I also have an early Dixie Buffalo Hunter, based off the Zouave. These guns are very effective and in the 30+ years I've had them have become trusted old companions. The Springfield has been around for over 40 years now has enough patina that it looks like a wel kept original.

But it's the patched ball guns that I love most, and the earlier ones in particular. I think if you look at the guns Mike Brooks builds or Capt. James new fowler, for a couple of examples, you'll see why. Dan