.50 cal ballistics chart? I want to learn more!

[Khufu]

I have been studying ballistics since I was in college. after hearing the old timers down at the local gun store claiming outrageous rhings about their trusty 30-30 and good 'ol 06. the biggest voncern is the ballistic coefficient and sectional density of the projectile. minor changes in shape, to include tip deformation make a big difference. fortunately muzzleloaders are the kindergarden of balistics a round ball makes the BC and SD super easy to get right. ball diameter is the only variable. there are 3 sets of balistics everyone needs to be concerned with, interior, exterior and terminal. for MLs the interior is very simple, BP burns at a constant rate if its moist, it still burns at a constant rate, just slower. the pressure curve is nery easy to express and coefficient of friction is easy as well. since MV is being actually measured interior balistics are not relivbent. thus barrel length, temp, humidity, nothing matters, as the ball is measured for MV not calculated and 1500 fps is the same no mater how long a barrel or how much powder was used to generate it. exterior balistics is what we are talking about here. from the muzzle to the target. air resistance and gravity are what we care about. gravity is constant (on earth), so air resistance is the only complex variable. temp, humidity, altitude, baranetric pressure and wind need to be concidered. pressure is not real important as a big change means bad weather and likely you would not be shooting. humidity as well because we all know how much fouling fun we have in real high humidity. so altitude temp and wind are all we really need to be very accurate in calculating trajectory. altitude, for round balls need only be considered to the nearest 1000 feet. (the BCs on round balls are VERY bad). and temp is important enough that sighting should occur at pretty close to the same temp as actual use. so, tes if you hint at 30 degrees, you should sight at 30 not in the summer at 90 deg. calculating a muzzleloaders trajectoty past 150 yards is useless as the drop is so extream that unless a deer is kind enough to stand in a premeasured spot or you can judge distance to within 10 feet your ability to make a kill zone hit is reduced to worse odds than you get in vegas. (that dosent even consider terminal ballistics and the remaining energy). so the small factors which become important in long range shooting (500+ yds) are so slight with MLs the calculating a trajectory is easy and very accurate. but face it we are talking slow 2000 fps MAX and poor BCs like a rock so we have a big arch and we must estimate yardage better than our centerfire counterparts. using the example of the 50 cal at 2000 fps sighted ay 100 yards the drop at 200 yards is 39.6 inches, a deer's chest is 18 inches deep, you would have to aim more than 2 deer chests over the target and retained energy is only 235 foot lbs, is that enough to kill a deer?
the truth is with MLs the only way to shoot farther and flatter is to use conical bullets with better BCs and SDs and I for one picked MLs for the purity of the sport and I will only shoot PRBs over real blackpowder. I don't accept the limitations, I welcome them. when a new shooter asks about ML ballistics we owe it to them ro tell them the real truth that they are promitive weapons with real limitations, and THATS what we love about them.

 

[thatoneguy]

this is what i was hoping for, but im not looking to make a 500 or 600 yard shot with a patch and ball. im looking to be deadly accurate under and maybe up to 150 yards, because realistically thats as far as I hunt. im in texas surrounded by trees, so far shots is not what im looking for. i know a good amount rests on me for shot placement, but i want to make sure that i know what im doing and that i can place a shot. my diet is deer meat, so this isnt just a recreational thing, i want to be accurate. ammunition for my 30-06 has gotten really expensive, so i just switched over to this. now i get to the fun stuff. of learning everything i can about how the ball works once it has left the barrel. college doesn't take hopes and dreams so this kentucky long rifle is all i got.

 

[Khufu]

first thing thats needed is muzzle velocity there are 3 ways to deternibe this, the best is by chronograph, its simple and quick, however not everyone has one or knows someone with one. the 2nd is by calculation its not accurate and there are a lot of variables. for a muzzleloader there is a 3rd, and simple way and even though its aprozimate, it can be honed in. and thats by time of flight. since a ball of given diameter (.490) has a fixed balistic coefficient and temp and altitude can be measured it is possible to fire a ball a long distance that is precisely measured, say 400 yards and time when the shot is fired till when you see dust. this will allow us to infer velocity and then by sighting at 50 yards and then measuring drop at 100 yards a very close approximation of muzzle velocity van be infered. once muzzle velocity is determined, a very accurate trajectory cam be calculated, the more data points, the more accurate the plot and MV.

 

[Walks with fire]

Round balls can be very accurate at ranges of 200 to even 300 yards. They will drift with the wind but it's predictable and consistent.

The space here is limited to discuss all the things required to achieve "long range round ball shooting accuracy" like our forefathers were capable of. It's a very deep subject and requires pages of text to explain.

Things that are important to consider are super sonic and sub sonic speed. Round ball can be accurate with most any twist at ranges to 90-100 yards. This is the range that a ball will pass into the sub-sonic velocity of approx. 1126 fps. The rotation of the ball as it enters into this zone is very important; too much twist and it has a knuckle ball effect and can move in any direction and is not predictable or repeatable.

For long range accurate ball shooting the load must strong enough to upset (obturation, sp?) the ball into the grooves. This critical to long range accuracy. This range of upset can be long or short depending on the particular components but generally in the 1500-1800 velocity range but faster velocity will still work as long as the seal is good and the back of the ball is not excessively distorted. The twist of the barrel is very important and for a .50 caliber the fastest twist for accurate long range (beyond sub-sonic) is about 1/75 twist. The ball must travel nose forward to whole time and if the twist is too fast the waist band of the slightly expanded ball will move forward of it's rotation and accuracy is lost at that point. Properly stabilized by the proper twist it will continue to fly nose forward and the downward gravitational will remain predictable; factor in the Kentucky windage in correctly and you have a hit at extended range.

It's quite complex and lots of things involved. One article that will get you started if your interested in learning more is "The Theory of long range round ball shooting"; not sure of the Author at this point.

Ok; fire away you guys. LOL

 

[Khufu]

long range shooting at targets is one thing, but for hunting its just not practicle. that same 50 cal shot zeroed at 100 yards with a MV of 2000 fps at 395 yards is traveling 417 fps with an energy of 68 foot lbs. thats right up there with a 25 auto at 50 yards, it may kick up some dust, or penetrate paper but take game, then consider that between 390 and 395 yards the drop is 20 inches. at 390 yards, can you estimate range to target within 5 yards, I can't. 20 inches is more than a deer chest. Utah is the only state I know of that regulates handguns use on deer by foot lbs of energy as I recall it was set to SAAMI specs for the .357 mag. somewhere around 550. that happens at about 74 yards with the 2000 fps 50 cal. and the ML slows faster than the .357. at 150 yards the ML is down to 314 foot pounds, or say a .380. accuracy of a ML has never been the question those of us who shoot them know just how accurate these things are. but enough to put down deer at long ranges is just not within their capability.

 

[Walks with fire]

I don't recall the original poster said anything about hunting. The response was about what happens to a ball after it becomes sub-sonic.

My post was about how the marksmen of early times were able to hit and kill at times of war with a round ball at what we consider extreme yardage for such a projectile. Many people today wonder how they were able to do it. Such rifles were sighted in at distances of 150 to 200 yards. Point of aim was the belt buckle or the top of the head depending on the sight in and the range to the target. With the proper twist barrel and load the drop and windage were consistent,predictable and repeatable so windage was the only thing that need to be considered.

For hunting with the ball twists that are common today load them up and keep your yardage under 100 yards and ball takes game very well. Just plan on some inconsistent accuracy once that ball starts into the sub-sonic velocity range. I love shooting patched ball and I am not done learning about it. I study the old ways; I shoot them a lot and they are capable of far more than what is commonly expected.

I quit comparing modern bullets and energy computations to shooting round ball projectiles years ago. They are two very different projectiles entirely. Some people think you need a 300 mag. to harvest a deer when some of the largest Grizzley bears have been harvested cleanly with a patched .54 caliber ball. Arrows get it done quite well with their low energy rates. Energy computations have nothing to do with it.

 

[Khufu]

...im not looking to make a 500 or 600 yard shot with a patch and ball. im looking to be deadly accurate under and maybe up to 150 yards, because realistically thats as far as I hunt. im in texas surrounded by trees, so far shots is not what im looking for. i know a good amount rests on me for shot placement, but i want to make sure that i know what im doing and that i can place a shot. my diet is deer meat, so this isnt just a recreational thing, i want to be accurate. ammunition for my 30-06 has gotten really expensive, so i just switched over to this. now i get to the fun stuff. of learning everything i can about how the ball works once it has left the barrel.

a quote from the OP ... and a ball penetrating a deer hide at 200 yards would be a miricle, would bounce off after MAYBE breaking a rib. I have killed a lot of deer with MLs most at 50 to 75 yards, most with a .45 cal, some with a 50, one with a .69. my longest, about 125 with a 50 and I tracked it for almost a half mile. I hit it in the perfect spot, had the ball enough energy to make it to the heart it would have hit it, was in maybe 2-3 inches, and bleeding in the lung is what finally broght it down. perhaps a 54 would have had the power to do a better job at that range, but I limit mt .50 cal shots to 100 yards or less and .45 shots to 75 yards or less and the .69 to 50 yards (its a smoothie. I have hunted around grizzlys a lot in the Riverton, Wy area for deer and elk, anyone who would shoot at one with anything smaller than a p53 enfield is either liquored up or not firing on all cylinders.
to humanely take deer, keep a .50 cal to 100 yards or less

 

[Walks with fire]

I won't advocate shooting at game beyond 100 yards with any ball but I do know for fact that my rifle shooting a .495 Hornady ball with 100 grains of 3f will go clean thru a 4x4 treated post at 150 yards. I have no doubt it would shoot clear thru a whitetail.

One of the posters on another site I go to a good deal took a shot at a mule deer as it was going directly away from him. He thought the range was 100 yards but later found it to be 140 yards. He aimed at the back of the neck and hit it in the butt with a .495 ball over 90 grain of 2f. Killed the deer instantly and the ball was found to have tracked straight and just under the hide on the brisket. I don't recall the distance of measured penetration but it does give an idea of what that ball can and does do. Once it's velocity falls below about 900 fps it's not going to expand but will penetrate very well.

 

[thatoneguy]

Well like I said, I'm not looking for a long range shot. I'm not shooting war time loads out of this thing haha but I do want to take a deer out quickly and cleanly. I figured a .54 would be a bit much so I went with a .50. at 100 yards and under I can get that close. I just want to make sure that the ball has enough energy to take down the deer. I don't want to have to put 2 shots in it to finish the poor animal. That's why I'm asking on here first. I know for a fact we can hunt with these. I just didn't know the limitations to this particular caliber. From what I'm putting together I guess 100 yards tops for a clean kill. 150 if I get it in the eye and straight into the brain for a clean kill? I honestly don't want to do long range hunting with this. I just need something cheap to buy in bulk that has the power to put down my next meal cleanly. Because I'm not about to take on a white tail or axis with a 17hmr or .22
Learning a good deal here though! Thanks!

 

[Dphar]

Use BP, you will be far happier.
Find one of the ballistics calculators on the web. Use a Ballistic Coefficient of .07 and you should be able to get useful data. Just remember that energy is largely irrelevant as to killing power in BP arms.
Killing range is greater than the range where a shot can be reliably placed with traditional sights and the trajectory past 120-130 yards. Best hunting zero for a 50 caliber with 1/2 ball weight +- of blackpowder is 1"-1.5" high at 100.
Dan

 

[coloradoclyde]

Best hunting zero for a 50 caliber with 1/2 ball weight +- of blackpowder is 1"-1.5" high at 100.

That makes sense..... :thumbsup:

 

[thatoneguy]

Thanks! I just wanna be as accurate and precise as possible when taking a deer down with this. I'm not exactly a great shot so until I get comfortable with my new rifle I want to stay within yardage that I can accurately place a shot at and be confident that I can put it down cleanly. But thanks for that BC I'll try it out!

 

[Herb]

Most of that hunt is told in this post. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1342679/

 

[Walks with fire]

Thanks Herb.

 

[Spikebuck]

150 if I get it in the eye and straight into the brain for a clean kill?

I'm glad that some people want to study this ballistics stuff. If I had to know all I've read here to go out and effectively kill game with a muzzleloader, I'd have too big of a headache to go hunting! :wink:

With traditional muzzleloader you can consistently hit an eye-sized target at 150 yards that moves??? :shocked2: I would not even THINK of attempting such shots. Even if you could do it on paper, the slightest move of the head as you squeezed off the shot and you just shot it's nose off. :shake: If I were going to shoot game at that distance (and I'm not) I'd stick to broadside lungs to have the best chance possible of a clean kill. I did kill a good Minnesota white tailed doe at 115 yards with a .54. 90 grs 777. Broke out ribs on both sides with a complete passthru. All the ballistics I need to know! :grin:

 

[coloradoclyde]

Thanks! I just wanna be as accurate and precise as possible when taking a deer down with this. I'm not exactly a great shot

Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice.

Don't be one of those guys that just shoots a couple rounds before opening day and thinks that is enough.

 

[thatoneguy]

I'm hoping to put at least 100 shots down range before I get to next seasons hunt. My grandfather always told me that if I don't feel comfortable taking the shot, either get closer or let them go. No use in wounding it. Take the risk and spend the day tracking or be smart and spend the day getting your meal ready.

 

[hanshi]

Penetration at velocities below 1000 fps is usually very good to excellent. I've killed two deer at 100+ yards with a couple of .50 flintlocks. Not sure about expansion but penetration was complete and they didn't go more than a few yards. Shots were made across a hay bale rest in a large field. Another deer was killed at 75 yards with a .45 ball and 60 grains of powder. Again the shot was through and through and the deer was easily found having fallen close by. Closer is always best but I still wouldn't pass up a shot at those distances.

 

[Walks with fire]

While I don't know how many boxes of ball I have shot in the last ten years I do know it's a lot.
This past fall I was going thru a box a week at least.

The range I shoot at has lots of centerfire users and the comments on my ball guns accuracy from them goes from very serious to down right comical.

The ones I love the best are those round balls will just bounce off a deer at those ranges. I shot a piece of 6x6 with my short little .54 Deerstalker with 80 grain of 2f just to show them how much bounce it had.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You are in good company. :grin: James Forsyth, a very famous hunter, not only of animals for the table but also a hunter of dangerous, big game, in 1867 wrote this, AND he had special rifles made to fire very large, patched, round ball (like 4 bore) with a very flat trajectory due to very large powder loads.

He agreed with another author...

"I consider a sporting range to be limited to a distance at which the shoulder of a deer may be fairly struck under ordinary circumstances--say 150 yards; shots beyond this range are bright moments, which, though not unfrequent, are not the rule. Thus, 200 yards may, I think, be accepted as the range required for a sporting rifle, beyond which I think extra sights useless. -Baker 1861"

Forsyth goes on to write:

"Most practical sportsmen will allow this to be a pretty correct definition, rather over than under the mark as my experience goes: 200 yards may be taken as the very outside limit at which it is ever advisable to fire at ordinary game; not because the rifle may not be accurate enough to ensure frequent 'hitting' at much greater distances, but because the probability of 'killing' at such ranges is very small indeed; and humanity, not to say sportsmanlike feeling, demands that we shall not knowingly run so strong a chance of wounding, and consigning to a miserable and lingering death, the animals over which we have dominion, to use not to abuse."

LD