.50 caliber Colt Dragoon?

[Eras Gone]

50 CALIBER DRAGOON?

I bought this recently on Gunbroker. It was billed as a standard Armi-San Marco 3rd Model Dragoon. Imagine my surprise when a .460 bullet fell into the chamber! The gun was made in 1981 and shows no signs of being fired. The chambers are .480 and the barrel is the same caliber and has standard rifling.
A .495 ball for a .50 caliber muzzle loading rifle will leave a nice ring of lead when loading in the chamber.

There are no caliber markings on the gun, and the reaming (you can see the shoulder in the chamber left from reaming) appears to have been done before the cylinder was hot blued.

Has anyone run across one of these before. Is it a factory alteration, or has someone converted this to .50 later?

Any insight on this curiosity would be appreciated.

 

[hawkeye2]

Back in the early 80's a sutler at the N-SSA nationals was selling those. Unfortunately I don't remember who he was but he had a run made up for him in Italy and they were available for several years. I got the impression they weren't a hot item on the market. I have no idea how many were in that run but they weren't legal for N-SSA competition and I had no interest in them.

 

[Zonie]

I think if I owned one of these pistols, I would use a .490 diameter ball rather than a .495 ball.
Even with a .490 ball, that loading lever is going to get a real workout as it tries to shove the ball into those .480 diameter chambers. Of course, if a separate loading press was used to load it, the .495 balls would work.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I would shoot it with some trepidation. If the cylinder has the same outside diameter as the standard .44 Third Model Dragoon, the chamber walls, including the web between chambers, will be thinner. I guess the shoulder inside each chamber decreases the total capacity for the powder charge, but I would still proceed with caution.

It is a nice looking revolver, though. The rear sight is a nice feature... Much better than the notch in the hammer nose.

Nice find! Thanks for sharing. I had never heard of such a beast, but I wouldn't mind having one.

Notchy Bob

 

[nkbj]

Lucky find!

What a great excuse for a call to Accurate Molds. They've got some designs that look juuust right.

 

[Eterry]

Great looking piece, I'd feel more secure if the wedge pin made full contact with the barrel frame.

 

[Bad Karma]

I would shoot it with some trepidation. If the cylinder has the same outside diameter as the standard .44 Third Model Dragoon, the chamber walls, including the web between chambers, will be thinner. I guess the shoulder inside each chamber decreases the total capacity for the powder charge, but I would still proceed with caution.

It is a nice looking revolver, though. The rear sight is a nice feature... Much better than the notch in the hammer nose.

Nice find! Thanks for sharing. I had never heard of such a beast, but I wouldn't mind having one.

Notchy Bob

Just eyeballing it looks like it has as much or more meat on the outside wall as a .44 colt or Remington... very interesting piece!

 

[Eras Gone]

Even with a .490 ball, that loading lever is going to get a real workout as it tries to shove the ball into those .480 diameter chambers.

It pushes a .495 ball in without a bit of struggle, of course the .490 is even easier. The .490 ball does not show as much bearing surface as I would like in a revolver.

 

[lyman54]

Now that's a beast. Would 40gr of fffg be a decent load? Is the cylinder rubbing on the forcing cone? Looks a bit worn. Very nice revolver though.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Did you mike the barrel too? Going in to the forcing cone is where the pressures are built up, and the gun will want to shoot itself loose.

 

[fourbore]

Agree, The OP got lucky in my opinion on this. And rear sight too. Very nice. I understand some Ruger Old Army have got this type of upgrade or call it a modification.

Not popular? Who even was aware of these to be not popular about it? I am longing for the day we can get someone to make a 3rd model with the rear sights. Is it me, or are gun owners odd. I mean seems like the indusry cannot supply enough Walkers, which are a pretty poor revolver in my book and yet cannot find any legit copies of the 3rd with sights. I get the 50 might be a little big, or lack authenticity, but; no 4 screws Dragoon r3rd anywhere by anyone. Sorry, my envy is showing. I should appreciate a good post and a heads up on another long lost gun to watch for.

I think I can see where an outer sleeve has been sweat on the cylinder. Or a remnant from a change in the casting to increase diameter.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I want one, but really need another piece like a hole in the head. It would be fun to carry with a 50 rifle when deer hunting. It eliminates extra balls etc.

 

[fourbore]

Here is a side by side view of 44 and 50 cylinders:

 

[fourbore]

I want one, but really need another piece like a hole in the head. It would be fun to carry with a 50 rifle when deer hunting. It eliminates extra balls etc.

I picked up a CVA optima 50 cal pistol. They are making a few more right now. Or they were, I noted backorder when I last looked. That might be worht some consideration, but; it makes the dragoon seem small and handy by comparisons! Using that, you could probably dispense with the rifle. I guess I am on the wrong forum to even mention that.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I have several 50 caliber rifes and cap and ball pistols and revolvers. The revolvers are all 44s. The two pistols are 45 and if I really needed another, I would probably get a 50 pistol to carry with the rifle. Of course then there is the 32 and 36 rifles. What is one to do?

 

[RB POWELL]

50 CALIBER DRAGOON?

I bought this recently on Gunbroker. It was billed as a standard Armi-San Marco 3rd Model Dragoon. Imagine my surprise when a .460 bullet fell into the chamber! The gun was made in 1981 and shows no signs of being fired. The chambers are .480 and the barrel is the same caliber and has standard rifling.
A .495 ball for a .50 caliber muzzle loading rifle will leave a nice ring of lead when loading in the chamber.

There are no caliber markings on the gun, and the reaming (you can see the shoulder in the chamber left from reaming) appears to have been done before the cylinder was hot blued.

Has anyone run across one of these before. Is it a factory alteration, or has someone converted this to .50 later?

Any insight on this curiosity would be appreciated.

From the photo it appears to me that the cylinder wall is a bit thin. I think I'd be extra careful regarding loads. I could be wrong, and all might be good.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I think if I owned one of these pistols, I would use a .490 diameter ball rather than a .495 ball.
Even with a .490 ball, that loading lever is going to get a real workout as it tries to shove the ball into those .480 diameter chambers. Of course, if a separate loading press was used to load it, the .495 balls would work.

The Missouri Bullet Company makes .487" pure lead round balls, which are available through Graf & Son. Just one more option to consider, if loading is difficult.

However, I now see that Eras Gone (the original poster) commented that the .495" ball loads easily enough.

I want to see a range report! Let us know how it shoots!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[hawkeye2]

The OP


Mark Hubbs

Eras Gone Bullet Molds

[email protected]

http://erasgonebullets.webstarts.com/index.html

 

[sourdough]

Not popular? Who even was aware of these to be not popular about it? I am longing for the day we can get someone to make a 3rd model with the rear sights. Is it me, or are gun owners odd. I mean seems like the industry cannot supply enough Walkers, which are a pretty poor revolver in my book and yet cannot find any legit copies of the 3rd with sights. I get the 50 might be a little big, or lack authenticity, but; no 4 screws Dragoon r3rd anywhere by anyone. Sorry, my envy is showing.

Back in the 70's-80's ASM marketed just what you are looking for. This one belongs to a good friend on another forum; I have been trying to get him to sell it to me for a shoulder-stocked project gun.



This is an ASM marketed in the mid-70's; the teller is the blackened brass yoke and J-hook housing.

I think I can see where an outer sleeve has been sweat on the cylinder.

That would mean that the creator of this revolver would have had access to a US Dragoons or U.S.M.R. (US Mounted Rifles) cylinder rollmark die, so it would make sense that they were possibly commissioned by some entrepreneur to have ASM created a small run. It has happened before. All it takes is money.

I should appreciate a good post and a heads up on another long lost gun to watch for.

As I don't want to hijack this very good thread, go here:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/r-g-wilson-revolver.121441/
If you are interested in Pietta and Uberti one-year runs of 1862 J.H. Dance And Brothers .36 and .44 revolvers, go here:

https://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolvers/index.php/topic,560.0.html
Regards,

Jim

 

[Eras Gone]

If you are interested in Pietta and Uberti one-year runs of 1862 J.H. Dance And Brothers .36 and .44 revolvers, go here:

Jim, I have one of those Uberti .36 Dances unfired in a cased set. It came from the Davis collection.