I'm looking to build a kit gun as I have never done one before. I'm thinking of buying a Traditions Trapper model in .50 caliber percussion. (I love those double set triggers) Can anybody give me some info on this model? I understand that it is an accurately shooting gun. Is it historically accurate as well? If so, should the barrel be browned or blued? If not, I'll probably just blue it. Can I use a .490 round ball with a .015 patch? (The same as I use in my .50 caliber T/C hawken) Any information will be appreciated.
.50 caliber pistol kit
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Their ad reads:
"A classic hooked breech pistol with remarkable accuracy, now in your choice of percussion or flintlock ignition. The pistols primitive style adjustable rear sight and double set triggers, capable of firing set or unset, allow you to predictably put your shots on target. Select hardwood stock, .50 caliber, 9 3/4" blued octagonal barrel, 1:20" rate of twist, fixed blade front sight, 15.5" length, 2 lbs. 14 oz. Also available in build it yourself kit."
As for if it is historically accurate, what era are you shooting for? (bad pun)
You could use a .490 r/b, but you may have to change your patch thickness to adjust to the riflings depth.
I noticed that the pistol you want looks like the old T/C Patriot pistol, but it was only a .45 caliber.
"A classic hooked breech pistol with remarkable accuracy, now in your choice of percussion or flintlock ignition. The pistols primitive style adjustable rear sight and double set triggers, capable of firing set or unset, allow you to predictably put your shots on target. Select hardwood stock, .50 caliber, 9 3/4" blued octagonal barrel, 1:20" rate of twist, fixed blade front sight, 15.5" length, 2 lbs. 14 oz. Also available in build it yourself kit."
As for if it is historically accurate, what era are you shooting for? (bad pun)
You could use a .490 r/b, but you may have to change your patch thickness to adjust to the riflings depth.
I noticed that the pistol you want looks like the old T/C Patriot pistol, but it was only a .45 caliber.
Tommy:
I don't want to discourage you from ANY particular gun but you might want to know what is legal in the NMLRA sanctioned pistol "Kentucky" match. The Kentucky pistol match - (6070) gives the following description:
Any flintlock or percussion pistol, original or replica, with PLOW HANDLE design.
What this means is that the little "hook" on the backside of the Trapper pistol would make it illegal. You could always file it off then it would comply. There are a few more rules regarding sights if you are interested. We (our club - Brushy Creek) will be having ALL of these pistol aggs added to our Spring Shoot & Rendezvous this year. Should make for some interesting pistol competition.
I don't want to discourage you from ANY particular gun but you might want to know what is legal in the NMLRA sanctioned pistol "Kentucky" match. The Kentucky pistol match - (6070) gives the following description:
Any flintlock or percussion pistol, original or replica, with PLOW HANDLE design.
What this means is that the little "hook" on the backside of the Trapper pistol would make it illegal. You could always file it off then it would comply. There are a few more rules regarding sights if you are interested. We (our club - Brushy Creek) will be having ALL of these pistol aggs added to our Spring Shoot & Rendezvous this year. Should make for some interesting pistol competition.
Thanks for the info. At present, I'm just starting to get back into ML shooting. I'm not in any club, so I don't expect to be shooting in any NMLRA events in the near future. But your suggestion may be helpful down the road. The reason I picked the Trapper model is that the front end looks a lot like a shortened version of my .50 cal T/C Hawken. And with the double set triggers I figured it would make a good companion gun for the same.
I saw the kit, as well as the completed pistol at a local supplier (Sportsman's Warehouse) I understand they are made in Spain. The assembled pistol was only $30 more than the kit so I wondered if it was worth it to build the kit. When I picked up the assembed pistol I saw that they had put about $30 worth of labor into it. The lockplate, instead of being flush with the wood, stood about a sixteenth proud at one end. Threr were several gaps between wood and metal. I think I could do a better job of assembly blindfolded. Cocking the hammer seemed a little rough , as did the trigger action. Is this an indication of poor quality parts, or can the action be smoothed out by reworking? I plan to buy the book, "Building the Kentucky Pistol" by James Johnston to learn some tips that might help. The wood in this kit is supposedly beech, (according to the Traditions Co.) although it looks somewhat like maple to me. Can anyone suggest a method to apply a walnut finish? If anyone has had any experience with this model pistol, I'd sure like to hear from you before I plunk down the cash. Thanks.
I saw the kit, as well as the completed pistol at a local supplier (Sportsman's Warehouse) I understand they are made in Spain. The assembled pistol was only $30 more than the kit so I wondered if it was worth it to build the kit. When I picked up the assembed pistol I saw that they had put about $30 worth of labor into it. The lockplate, instead of being flush with the wood, stood about a sixteenth proud at one end. Threr were several gaps between wood and metal. I think I could do a better job of assembly blindfolded. Cocking the hammer seemed a little rough , as did the trigger action. Is this an indication of poor quality parts, or can the action be smoothed out by reworking? I plan to buy the book, "Building the Kentucky Pistol" by James Johnston to learn some tips that might help. The wood in this kit is supposedly beech, (according to the Traditions Co.) although it looks somewhat like maple to me. Can anyone suggest a method to apply a walnut finish? If anyone has had any experience with this model pistol, I'd sure like to hear from you before I plunk down the cash. Thanks.
Tommy: If you don't like the fit or the finish, I would suggest you buy the kit.
Use part of the price difference to buy some Birchwood Casey Walnut stain. This is a water base stain but it doesn't raise the grain much if you wet the stock let it dry and de-whisker it several times before staining.
The water base stain allows you to build up coats to darken it if one coat isn't dark enough. (When the stain drys it will look light. Apply some water to see what it will look like after you apply the finish coat.) If it isn't dark enough to suit you, apply another coat.
Use some more of your $30 to buy a finish. Some use linseed (slow process) or Tung oil,(some are allergic to it). I use Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil (which is linseed oil with additional driers added). I've had good luck with both the wipe on and with the spray can.
Now you can use the remaining money to buy some balls and powder!
I've found that building guns is a great diversion from watching the tube.
Have fun
Use part of the price difference to buy some Birchwood Casey Walnut stain. This is a water base stain but it doesn't raise the grain much if you wet the stock let it dry and de-whisker it several times before staining.
The water base stain allows you to build up coats to darken it if one coat isn't dark enough. (When the stain drys it will look light. Apply some water to see what it will look like after you apply the finish coat.) If it isn't dark enough to suit you, apply another coat.
Use some more of your $30 to buy a finish. Some use linseed (slow process) or Tung oil,(some are allergic to it). I use Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil (which is linseed oil with additional driers added). I've had good luck with both the wipe on and with the spray can.
Now you can use the remaining money to buy some balls and powder!
I've found that building guns is a great diversion from watching the tube.
Have fun
Tommy: Here's what I'd do if I had your money. For a few more dollars you can custom build you a REAL pistol. TOW sells Green Mountain pistol barrels with a 1 in 16" twist - that's what you want. Buy a pre-carved stock from Pecatonica (you'll have to inlet the lock, triggers, etc.). Buy a small Siler caplock kit. When your finished you shouldn't have $200 in it! It will shoot GOOOOOooooooD!!!!!!!!!
I've had the Crockett and Pioneer pistols from Traditions. They will shoot but the lock and triggers have problems. The lock is a cheap piece of junk! No bridle. Good luck with your decision.
Oh, I almost forgot to mention that the "Crocket" pistol ads usually say it has a 1 in 16" twist. I'm here to tell everybody it does NOT. It has a 1 in 48" twist. I believe they took some rifle barrels and cut them into several pistol barrels saving on money. The pistol will shoot but you have to use twice the ammount of powder than they recommend to get a decent group.
I've had the Crockett and Pioneer pistols from Traditions. They will shoot but the lock and triggers have problems. The lock is a cheap piece of junk! No bridle. Good luck with your decision.
Oh, I almost forgot to mention that the "Crocket" pistol ads usually say it has a 1 in 16" twist. I'm here to tell everybody it does NOT. It has a 1 in 48" twist. I believe they took some rifle barrels and cut them into several pistol barrels saving on money. The pistol will shoot but you have to use twice the ammount of powder than they recommend to get a decent group.
Doc Contender
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Not that I want to change the subject, but what is the best twist rate to shoot RB's in 50 cal pistol.
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If I remember correctly, 1-20, but I have heard of as much as 1-30. I believe most you find will be the 1-20.
Again I like the 1 in 16". It's the same twist that the Ruger "Old Army" uses. They are .45 cal. and really shoot nice for a revolver. If I were building a single shot, I would use a 1 in 16" on anything smaller than .40 cal. Then I would use the 1 in 20" on .45 and above like Wick suggest. Really, I don't think you would see a whole lot of difference between the two. I wouldn't be afraid of using either.
Edited: I re-read the question - sorry. I see you were referring to a .50 caliber. Although I don't have any experience with a .50 caliber pistol, I'm sure the 1 in 20" or 30" will work fine. I was wondering why you would want such a large caliber as a .50 anyway. It would surely pack some recoil.
Edited: I re-read the question - sorry. I see you were referring to a .50 caliber. Although I don't have any experience with a .50 caliber pistol, I'm sure the 1 in 20" or 30" will work fine. I was wondering why you would want such a large caliber as a .50 anyway. It would surely pack some recoil.
Well, I went down to the store that carries Traditions pistol kits and was I disappointed.It seems that they have stamped some politically correct safety crap into the top of the barrel. (Do not use smokeless powder, read the safety instructions, etc.) I looked at a Lyman GPR kit and they also had some stamped in the barrel. Now, I haven't bought a black powder weapon in 30 years. Is this now common practice these days, or can I still find manufacturers who are not so afraid of being sued that they make their guns and kits without this ugly disfigurement?
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Tommy, these folks are just trying to be helpful, if you get bored in your hunting stand or waiting your turn on the shooting line, you can just lay back and read your gun for awhile.
quote:Originally posted by Wick Ellerbe:
if you get bored in your hunting stand or waiting your turn on the shooting line, you can just lay back and read your gun for awhile. It depends on what language it is stamped in...
If you have a long barrel, they could stamp more stuff on it.
It would say things like...
(Do not use smokeless powder, read the safety instructions, never resell this gun to a terrorist, do not use this gun to start fires with, continued next barrel flat...)
Would that count as reduced barrel weight?
if you get bored in your hunting stand or waiting your turn on the shooting line, you can just lay back and read your gun for awhile. It depends on what language it is stamped in...
If you have a long barrel, they could stamp more stuff on it.
(Do not use smokeless powder, read the safety instructions, never resell this gun to a terrorist, do not use this gun to start fires with, continued next barrel flat...)
Would that count as reduced barrel weight?
The oldest factory black powder gun I have (which is about 20 years old) has the "BLACK POWDER ONLY" stamped on the barrel.
When I bought a windshield sun blocker it had a note with it telling me not to drive my car with the shield installed!. My Miatas sun visors tell you not to stand up while driving and to put your kid in the back seat. (It doesn't have a back seat).
Em lawyers are gona make sure we are protected from ourselves come Hell or High Water.
When I bought a windshield sun blocker it had a note with it telling me not to drive my car with the shield installed!. My Miatas sun visors tell you not to stand up while driving and to put your kid in the back seat. (It doesn't have a back seat).
Em lawyers are gona make sure we are protected from ourselves come Hell or High Water.
Jim,
I hear ya about the sunblocker. Sounds like the warning on a rotary lawnmower: "Do not use as a hedge trimmer" I guess I'm from the same school as Jeff Foxworthy. He said,"When I was a kid, we had a 900 pound tv on a tv tray table. My old man said, Let him pull it down on his head a couple times, he'll get the idea." I think these politically correct warnings are polluting the gene pool. The idiots used to take themselves out, now we're protecting them and helping them procreate more of their kind. Reminds me of the guy I heard of about 30 years ago who was hunting with his smokepole. He was walking through the woods carrying it muzzle pointed straight up. He had a cap on the nipple and the set trigger set. Well, a twig brushed against the trigger and the gun went off. The recoil caused the barrel to smack him right between the runnin' lights. I'll bet he never did that again!
I hear ya about the sunblocker. Sounds like the warning on a rotary lawnmower: "Do not use as a hedge trimmer" I guess I'm from the same school as Jeff Foxworthy. He said,"When I was a kid, we had a 900 pound tv on a tv tray table. My old man said, Let him pull it down on his head a couple times, he'll get the idea." I think these politically correct warnings are polluting the gene pool. The idiots used to take themselves out, now we're protecting them and helping them procreate more of their kind. Reminds me of the guy I heard of about 30 years ago who was hunting with his smokepole. He was walking through the woods carrying it muzzle pointed straight up. He had a cap on the nipple and the set trigger set. Well, a twig brushed against the trigger and the gun went off. The recoil caused the barrel to smack him right between the runnin' lights. I'll bet he never did that again!
quote:Originally posted by tommy b:
The recoil caused the barrel to smack him right between the runnin' lights. I'll bet he never did that again! First question: Why was he walking around with the barrel up and the hammer cocked?
I seen a guy do that with a T/C Contender in .44 magnum, only the front sight blade gave him a three inch gash along his forehead,
luckly the powder burns cauterized the wound and kept the bleeding down to a slight trickle.
Just because we choose black powder weapons, let's keep in mind that they can KILL.
If all warnings were printed on everything, would that still save the illiterate?
The recoil caused the barrel to smack him right between the runnin' lights. I'll bet he never did that again! First question: Why was he walking around with the barrel up and the hammer cocked?
I seen a guy do that with a T/C Contender in .44 magnum, only the front sight blade gave him a three inch gash along his forehead,
Just because we choose black powder weapons, let's keep in mind that they can KILL.
If all warnings were printed on everything, would that still save the illiterate?
Well, I bought the traditions Trapper pistol kit from Sportsman's Warehouse last month and the quality wasn't any better that their completed pistol. There was damage to the stock in the vicinity of the lock screw near the back of the barrel. I could not hand start any of the machine screws into their mating pieces without fear of cross threading them. Traditions conveniently omitted the thread size and pitch in their instructions so I couldn't chase the threads to clean them up. The lock and trigger assemblies worked rather roughly. Also, someone at the factory (I assume)polished some of the brass parts and the buttplate, instead of being a smooth oval, had a flat spot on one side.
When I tried to get my money back at SW, they said their policy was no returns on firearms. I tried to explain that this was not a firearm, just a collection of wood and metal parts, but the guy disagreed. He did say he could give me a store coupon for the money spent. I took the coupon (which I'm trying to sell) to cut my losses But I won't spend another dime at SW or buy another Traditions product. I was so discouraged, I was about to give up on pistol building, but I think I'll build one from parts. (GM barrel, semi-finished stock, siler or equal lock, etc.)
This brings me to my main questions. I want to make this pistol somewhat period correct so I'd like to study up on trapper pistols before I start butchering wood and steel. Can anyone refer me to sources that describe them, with pictures,if possible. What period were they used in? What were they used for? I have heard of them being referred to as "horse pistols" I have always been interested in the Civil War so I look at this as becoming more knowledgeable about this country's history.
I just couldn't bring myself to own a gun that had instructions to read the safety manual etched into the barrel.
When I tried to get my money back at SW, they said their policy was no returns on firearms. I tried to explain that this was not a firearm, just a collection of wood and metal parts, but the guy disagreed. He did say he could give me a store coupon for the money spent. I took the coupon (which I'm trying to sell) to cut my losses But I won't spend another dime at SW or buy another Traditions product. I was so discouraged, I was about to give up on pistol building, but I think I'll build one from parts. (GM barrel, semi-finished stock, siler or equal lock, etc.)
This brings me to my main questions. I want to make this pistol somewhat period correct so I'd like to study up on trapper pistols before I start butchering wood and steel. Can anyone refer me to sources that describe them, with pictures,if possible. What period were they used in? What were they used for? I have heard of them being referred to as "horse pistols" I have always been interested in the Civil War so I look at this as becoming more knowledgeable about this country's history.
I just couldn't bring myself to own a gun that had instructions to read the safety manual etched into the barrel.
Don't be discouraged tommy b... you can make a good muzzle loading handgun.
Now I'm sure you'll find the style you like but I'd like to give you a couple of tips.
Every once in awhile I'll stop in at a store that handles fancy wood. About 1 time in 5 they'll let me have end pieces cut off of wood that had split or had a knot or something. Pretty cheap wood for a handgun.
I prefer to bore out the pieces of barrel to the size of the fella's rifle. Easier to load, you control the ball size and you've got yourself a shotgun handy for small game and birds.
Take a serious look at the drum & nipple as well as the flintlock. Percussion locks cost less and for a first project can be a little easier to build. This goes for making a full stock handgun as opposed to a halfstock, unless you're good at soldering.
Keep the sights simple...authenticity and ease of use will be your reward.
You know, I think Dixie might have some inexpensive plans for making muzzleloaders.
Hope things work out for you.
Voyageur
Now I'm sure you'll find the style you like but I'd like to give you a couple of tips.
Every once in awhile I'll stop in at a store that handles fancy wood. About 1 time in 5 they'll let me have end pieces cut off of wood that had split or had a knot or something. Pretty cheap wood for a handgun.
I prefer to bore out the pieces of barrel to the size of the fella's rifle. Easier to load, you control the ball size and you've got yourself a shotgun handy for small game and birds.
Take a serious look at the drum & nipple as well as the flintlock. Percussion locks cost less and for a first project can be a little easier to build. This goes for making a full stock handgun as opposed to a halfstock, unless you're good at soldering.
Keep the sights simple...authenticity and ease of use will be your reward.
You know, I think Dixie might have some inexpensive plans for making muzzleloaders.
Hope things work out for you.
Voyageur
Tommie b: Sorry to hear about your problems with the Traditions but IMHO any gun that says "made in Spain" (with the exception of their $2000+ shotguns) is at best a so-so and at worst a piece of crap (POC?). On the other hand most of the Italian stuff ranges from good to excellent.
Having said that and looking thru my Dixie Catalog I see that Lyman makes a "Great Plains Pistol" in kit form. Dixie lists it as being either in .50 or .54 cal. The Price in this years Catalog is $165 + postage. The Dixie Part Number is PK0945 (.50 cal) or PK0948 (.54 cal).
This kit is made in Italy and its appearance is what you would find when looking at the pistols that were typically used in the 1835-1860 era. It does not have set triggers but they were very rare on pistols of this era so it is actually more "Historically correct".
It is a "half stock" with a spherical shaped butt on the grip. It has a fixed rear sight, 9 inch long 15/16 octagon barrel, 1-30 twist .500 bore, .516 grooves. Brass trigger guard, color case hardened lock plate/hammer.
Dixie says the .50 likes to shoot .490 balls with .015 patches so it should work with your rifle fodder.
It is a "skill level 1" which means minor fitting of the metal parts and finishing the Walnut stock as you wish. You may leave the barrel "in the white" or blue or brown it. All three methods were used in the 1840s.
The Italian Pistol kits I have made (Pedersoli) were all top notch. The Pedersoli kits are styled for much earlier time periods than what you want.
As you have not built a gun before may I suggest you follow this thread to hear more of my rambling. Although it was dealing with a rifle the same applies to a pistol:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000060
Let us know how and what your doing.
Having said that and looking thru my Dixie Catalog I see that Lyman makes a "Great Plains Pistol" in kit form. Dixie lists it as being either in .50 or .54 cal. The Price in this years Catalog is $165 + postage. The Dixie Part Number is PK0945 (.50 cal) or PK0948 (.54 cal).
This kit is made in Italy and its appearance is what you would find when looking at the pistols that were typically used in the 1835-1860 era. It does not have set triggers but they were very rare on pistols of this era so it is actually more "Historically correct".
It is a "half stock" with a spherical shaped butt on the grip. It has a fixed rear sight, 9 inch long 15/16 octagon barrel, 1-30 twist .500 bore, .516 grooves. Brass trigger guard, color case hardened lock plate/hammer.
Dixie says the .50 likes to shoot .490 balls with .015 patches so it should work with your rifle fodder.
It is a "skill level 1" which means minor fitting of the metal parts and finishing the Walnut stock as you wish. You may leave the barrel "in the white" or blue or brown it. All three methods were used in the 1840s.
The Italian Pistol kits I have made (Pedersoli) were all top notch. The Pedersoli kits are styled for much earlier time periods than what you want.
As you have not built a gun before may I suggest you follow this thread to hear more of my rambling. Although it was dealing with a rifle the same applies to a pistol:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000060
Let us know how and what your doing.
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