50cal load data

[B. Hennessy]

So i am new to muzzel loaders. I bought a used investarm hawkin style 50cal with a 1:48 twist the guy i bought it from said he uses .495 prb and 80g of 3f goex with a .018 pillow tick patch. Now here is the question everything i have read here so far talks about .490 prb with a .015 patch and 3f goex same with the bp load book i bought it only shows a .495 when its listing pirodex as the propelant and a .010 patch. I already have the .495 rb and he sent patches with the rifle are they safe to use with the data he provided or am i looking at trouble here?

 

[Zonie]

No. The only trouble you might have is starting the patched ball into the muzzle.

In fact, the load you mentioned isn't unusual at all with some guns. It just makes a bit tighter patch/ball combination than a .490 diameter ball will give.

With this muzzleloading stuff it becomes obvious that each gun will have one ball/patch/powder load it really likes.
Usually, there is another load that comes close to matching its accuracy but there will be a bunch of combinations that, although quite safe, still give poor accuracy.

It's nice that the previous owner gave you his recommendations but if you try some other sized patch thicknesses, ball sizes and powder loads you may find one that works even better.

Besides, doing this gives you a good reason to have the fun of shooting it. :grin:

 

[B. Hennessy]

thanks zonie. I though it better to be safe than sorry and this forum is a great source of info i still have a lot to learn and plan on doing a lot of shooting with this smokepole.

 

[ebiggs1]

... when its listing pirodex as the propelant ...

If this is a flintlock and you meant Pyrodex, :hmm: do NOT use Pyrodex! :td: Use GOEX, either 2F or 3F for the load. Use GOEX 4F for the prime. :thumbsup:

70 grs of GOEX 2F,(60 grs of 3F) a 490 RB and a .018 pillow ticking patch is a good place to start. :wink:

 

[BrownBear]

...said he uses .495 prb....with a .018 pillow tick patch. Now here is the question everything i have read here so far talks about .490 prb with a .015 patch...

Based on my experience with a couple of older Investarms (54 and 58 cal) and more recent Lymans (made by Investarms, in this case several each 50 and 54 cals), I'm going to guess that the previous owner broke it in nicely for you and it's ready to sing.

All of mine have started out new requiring a little "looser" combo as in the example you cite with .490/.015. But after several hundred shots the bore had smoothed noticeably and seating became really easy, allowing me to move up to the larger ball and thicker patch. Starting effort went up, but I don't have to use a mallet or any such range gear, instead starting normally in field use. I'd even be tempted to guess that those .490/.015 sources were still using pretty new barrels.

But here's the kicker. Once the guns reach the point that I can move up to the larger combo, there's also a big jump in accuracy. They weren't bad at all before with the smaller combo, but until that barrel smoothed it just wasn't possible to start the larger combo without range shooting tools (mallet).

I'd sure start with the load he recommends, and I'd expect great performance. With that as a "guide" you can decide if it takes too much effort to start the ball and drop to the smaller combo if required for practical field use. Only if the accuracy suffered would I abandon the smaller combo in favor of extra loading effort in the field.

 

[B. Hennessy]

Brownbear thanks the gun i bought has only been fired 3 times before i bought it so the .495 rb with the .018 patch was alittle tight but i did not have to use a mallet just a light tap on the short starter to get it started. I might switch to a .490 and .015 and see how that goes. But the .495 got me shooting for the first time and i had a blast cant wait to go out again :grin:

 

[yadkin]

A good rule to remember is starting grains of powder 1 grain per caliber and 2 grains max. for patched round ball ( 50 cal. 50 grains start 100 grains max.) if shooting bullets maxi-mini decrease max load by 10 percent, your most accurate charge will be some where right in the middle about 75 grains but not necessarraly and this also makes for a good charge for hunting deer sized game, you will just have to experiment a little and that is what makes it fun. be careful, don't be affraid to ask, keep your muzzle up and your powder dry. Chef.

 

[Pacobillie]

Being the guy who sold you the gun, I just want to say that I did try the .490 balls with .018 patches, and I found that the gun grouped better with the slightly larger .495 balls. My sense is that .490/.015 will be too loose a combo.

 

[Pierre LaPierre]

I feel that if you want to change things, make small changes, and make one change at a time (ie. patch size) in increments. Document the changes you make, and experiment until you hit upon the right formula. If you feel the patch is too tight, then change that slightly first. If it is an accurate combo, then leave it be. Developing your load/patch/ball combo to get the best balance of accuracy, power, and comfort is what makes this whole muzzleloading game fun.

 

[Stony]

3 rounds as the first and only time the gun has been fired is not really a basis for an accurate and safe load. If the gun has only been fired 3 times before, it hasn't begun to "settle" down and "break in". Most guns don't begin to develop their accuracy until at least 200 rounds have been fired. Use this time to have fun and learn how your gun as a flintlock goes off. Does it like the prime in the center of the pan or banked to the inside or outside? Does it like 2-3 grains of prime or 4-6 grains? Does it like flint bevel up or down? Does it prefer english black or french amber? You have so much to discover about your flintlock. Take your time and enjoy the ride.

 

[BrownBear]

3 rounds as the first and only time the gun has been fired is not really a basis for an accurate and safe load. If the gun has only been fired 3 times before, it hasn't begun to "settle" down and "break in". Most guns don't begin to develop their accuracy until at least 200 rounds have been fired. Use this time to have fun and learn how your gun as a flintlock goes off. Does it like the prime in the center of the pan or banked to the inside or outside? Does it like 2-3 grains of prime or 4-6 grains? Does it like flint bevel up or down? Does it prefer english black or french amber? You have so much to discover about your flintlock. Take your time and enjoy the ride.

Excellent advice!

All the non-Lyman Investarms I've owned except one had been shot a fair bit before I got them and shot very well right off the bat. All my Lymans have been new, and required 200-300 shots to really start singing. Now they're incredible.

That one unfired non-Lyman I picked up is a 58 cal capper, and I felt really fortunate to get it. Accuracy was fair to disappointing, so I just picked one of the "fair" loads and went to shooting. Lo and behold, as the bore smoothed and broke in that particular load started feeling loose to seat, so I pumped up the patch thickness. Much better. Then I went to work on the powder charges. Bingo!

Coincidentally I had tried that combo early on with only fair results, but hadn't spent more time with it because it was darned tough to start. After the break-in, loading effort had eased a bunch, and it was landing groups akin to those in my other Lymans and non-Lymans.

If you see the pattern there, I'm going to guess you'll experience something similar. You're likely to be real happy in the end, but I wouldn't sweat it too much right now. But as David Hoffman is saying, use the time before that bore "settles in" to get acquainted and have some fun.

 

[MSW]

you should consider getting a copy of Dutch Schoultz' paper on blackpowder accuracy... here's a link:
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

hope this helps

 

[Dphar]

So i am new to muzzel loaders. I bought a used investarm hawkin style 50cal with a 1:48 twist the guy i bought it from said he uses .495 prb and 80g of 3f goex with a .018 pillow tick patch. Now here is the question everything i have read here so far talks about .490 prb with a .015 patch and 3f goex same with the bp load book i bought it only shows a .495 when its listing pirodex as the propelant and a .010 patch. I already have the .495 rb and he sent patches with the rifle are they safe to use with the data he provided or am i looking at trouble here?

Tighter is better, .495 with a heavy ticking patch (.015 to .018 depending on how its measured) is standard 50 ball-patch for me.
Load books are generally useless.
If you are wise you will use FFF or FF BP only.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

If the rifle seems inaccurate put a tight fitting wad of 0000 steel wool on a jag and patch. Run this up and down the bore 30 strokes or so with some oil.
This will deburr the edges of the lands.
Wash it out with some alcohol or a gasoline flush to get rid of any steel wool fibers.
Dry patches till dry then load or oil for storage.
If its cutting patches the crown may be too abrupt or sharp.
Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

I am going to be called snobbish, or not wanting to help a beginner for these comments. I am neither. But, I do get aggravated with questions from those who do not seem to want to help themselves but prefer to learn muzzle loading from a chair in front of a monitor instead of shooting.
I belong to two other, very old, ml forums that are essentially defunct now because the members simply got tired of answering posts that started: I just got a new GPR/TC/etc. .50 caliber rifle, what starting load should I use?
We got three to six of these identical posts a day from beginners. The commonality was that this information is widely available in scores of locations. It doesn't take much initiative to find it for oneself.
I would like to see a permanent post somewhere to cover this subject. It would help beginners. And it would keep crochety old guys like me from getting irked. :wink:

 

[Zonie]

So don't get irked. Just jump to the next post.
Chances are it will be more to your liking.

Personally, I don't mind making a newcomer feel welcome by answering their questions, even if it has been asked hundreds of times before.

 

[Walks with fire]

 

[Dphar]

I am going to be called snobbish, or not wanting to help a beginner for these comments. I am neither. But, I do get aggravated with questions from those who do not seem to want to help themselves but prefer to learn muzzle loading from a chair in front of a monitor instead of shooting.
I belong to two other, very old, ml forums that are essentially defunct now because the members simply got tired of answering posts that started: I just got a new GPR/TC/etc. .50 caliber rifle, what starting load should I use?
We got three to six of these identical posts a day from beginners. The commonality was that this information is widely available in scores of locations. It doesn't take much initiative to find it for oneself.
I would like to see a permanent post somewhere to cover this subject. It would help beginners. And it would keep crochety old guys like me from getting irked. :wink:

I understand the frustration. But you don't HAVE to answer the question.
I get irked too, its normal on the WWW.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

The "load problem", for the most part, comes from people who have shot/reloaded for grey powder guns where load data is critical. They don't understand that a 50 for example will work really well with about 1/2 ball weight of power and can be fine tuned from there. The biggest mistake people make is using TOO LITTLE powder. While the old 1 grain per caliber is pretty good for a 32-36 for example, most 50 calibers will patten like a shotgun with 50 grains. The 32 grains in a 32 is well over 1/2 ball weight. But the small bores often need this.
50 grains in a 50 is under 33%. This ratio will work in a 69 caliber in many cases but in a 50 its not enough. Testing will invariably prove this. So they read something perhaps on the WWW about someone using 50-60 grains in a 50 and then wonder why their rifle does not shoot.

The problem with recommending powder charges on the WWW is I have not the slightest idea what the gun is or its condition, if its was properly assembled, if its been proof tested etc etc. So of late I PREFER to remain silent on powder charges.
But its impossible to give people options and information by remaining silent. So I will sometimes comment on powder charges.

So you beginners?
Buy Lymans Blackpowder Handbook.
Load for 1600 fps at least. In a 50 I would prefer 1800+ for hunting. My 54 runs over 1900 with 90 gr of FFF Swiss. My 67 does about 1600 on about 1/3 ball weight of FF.
The use of 1/2 ball weight of powder in Kentuckys dates to the 18th century so its not modern "modern magnum loads" as some like to state.
We have accounts of British officers being shot at 300 yards (and a horse behind 2 officers at 400) likely with a rifle under 51-52 caliber (few were larger than this even in the 1770s). 75-90 grains in a 50 will be pretty low at 300 yards so 50 would be useless. So the circumstantial evidence shows they shot powder charges similar to what we do today. The calibers are similar, the twists similar. If it takes 1600-1900 to get accuracy in a rifle today its likely similar loads were needed then. People at the time stated that a good rifleman should be able to hit a mans head a 150 yards.
You can't do this with popgun loads in my experience.
But then there are MLs out there that I consider to be unsafe at any speed so to speak.


Dan

 

[Twisted_1in66]

So don't get irked. Just jump to the next post.
Chances are it will be more to your liking.

Personally, I don't mind making a newcomer feel welcome by answering their questions, even if it has been asked hundreds of times before.

And THAT my friends is one of the things a good moderator does.

Thanks for being there Zonie for the newbies and old timers alike.

Twisted_1in66 :hatsoff: