WITHDRAWN .54 cal Hawken

[CascadeRob]

Hello, I am on the hunt for a .54 cal Hawken style rifle, preferably half stock and for PRB only shooting. I’ve got about a $2k budget but would wiggle for the right rifle, I was going to pull the trigger on a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken but felt a little uneasy spending $2300 on a production gun. Unless someone could chime in on these if they are worth it? Found a few on GB but again I feel as if I’m paying top dollar there. I’ve been looking for around 6 months or so (kinda picky on my rifles) looking for a good quality built gun but not something that’s just going to hang on the wall only. GPR’s just don’t feel right for me, I cannot get the sights lined up without really kinking my head down, which is why I’d like a “higher end” or custom built one. Thank you for your time, and insight.

 

[Gtrubicon]

Are you watching Track of The Wolfs website? They have had some really nice hawkens/plains rifles lately.

 

[CascadeRob]

Are you watching Track of The Wolfs website? They have had some really nice hawkens/plains rifles lately.

To be honest not as much as I should! I kind of forget about their firearm section haha! I will keep my eye out there though!

 

[TxGR]

I bought a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken in July 2022, and paid just a little over $1300, brand new. In fairness, I bought this in Europe, and I like the gun, but there's no way it's worth $2K...not even close.

The Pedersoli fit and finish is good. I paid extra for the fancy maple stock. The lock seems fine, the color case hardening is good, the German silver front sight is fine. The adjustable rear sight is out of place and I will replace it.

The cons: there is something odd about the wood figure, it almost looks faked. It has a weird sheen to it and the wood has an almost plastic feel. The barrel is browned, but back in Texas I have a genuine browned barrel and this looks very thin and sprayed on, almost like a brown cerakote. At a distance, the rifle looks nice, maybe even above average. On authentic styling, I'd give it a 7 or 8 out of 10 -- it's way better than CVA or Traditions "Hawkens."

If I had to do it over again, I would not buy this rifle. Even at $1300 (PLN6000), I think it was way overpriced.

If I were in your position, I'd just camp out here and subscribe to his forum stack. There are some surprisingly good deals. I bought a Ruger ROA for just $600 last month, NIB. On GB, those are quite a lot more and then there are the taxes. You're also likely to find more custom or semi-custom rifles here.

I am particularly fond of the plains rifles. I've been wanting an "authentic" representation ever since I found this one made by Powder Keg Rifleworks of Oregon (long since out of business) back in the late 1990s I think:

From a distance, the Pedersoli looks kind of like this custom rifle. Up close, not at all.

 

[CascadeRob]

I bought a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken in July 2022, and paid just a little over $1300, brand new. In fairness, I bought this in Europe, and I like the gun, but there's no way it's worth $2K...not even close.

The Pedersoli fit and finish is good. I paid extra for the fancy maple stock. The lock seems fine, the color case hardening is good, the German silver front sight is fine. The adjustable rear sight is out of place and I will replace it.

The cons: there is something odd about the wood figure, it almost looks faked. It has a weird sheen to it and the wood has an almost plastic feel. The barrel is browned, but back in Texas I have a genuine browned barrel and this looks very thin and sprayed on, almost like a brown cerakote. At a distance, the rifle looks nice, maybe even above average. On authentic styling, I'd give it a 7 or 8 out of 10 -- it's way better than CVA or Traditions "Hawkens."

If I had to do it over again, I would not buy this rifle. Even at $1300 (PLN6000), I think it was way overpriced.

If I were in your position, I'd just camp out here and subscribe to his forum stack. There are some surprisingly good deals. I bought a Ruger ROA for just $600 last month, NIB. On GB, those are quite a lot more and then there are the taxes. You're also likely to find more custom or semi-custom rifles here.

I am particularly fond of the plains rifles. I've been wanting an "authentic" representation ever since I found this one made by Powder Keg Rifleworks of Oregon (long since out of business) back in the late 1990s I think:
View attachment 283337
From a distance, the Pedersoli looks kind of like this custom rifle. Up close, not at all.

Wow! Awesome info! Thank you for the honesty! It’s amazingly hard to find “updated” info on this RMH, so it was hard to say if it was an overpriced selling piece. It makes me happy I canceled my order.

Now correct me if I’m wrong. Is a GPR and a Hawken the same “design” or is there different characteristics of a GPR? I do like the looks of GPR’s but the Traditions version I held I could not stand.

 

[Gtrubicon]

Current for sale on this forum, Lexington1 has a hawken listed, it’s either an early Cherry Corners or Ithaca hawken. He placed the add on December 31. It’s a beautiful rifle. I have a Cherry Corners Hawken.

 

[kelvinator]

Current for sale on this forum, Lexington1 has a hawken listed, it’s either an early Cherry Corners or Ithaca hawken. He placed the add on December 31. It’s a beautiful rifle. I have a Cherry Corners Hawken.

I think it's a .50 cal, but a really nice Hawken non the less.

 

[Gtrubicon]

I think it's a .50 cal, but a really nice Hawken non the less.

Oh, I missed the 54 part. I get all ecstatic about Hawkens! Then 54 it is! Send that barrel to Hoyt and have him give it some love!

 

[CascadeRob]

Oh, I missed the 54 part. I get all ecstatic about Hawkens! Then 54 it is! Send that barrel to Hoyt and have him give it some love!

I appreciate your helpfulness! I took a look at it, it’s a beautiful rifle!

 

[TxGR]

[snip]
Now correct me if I’m wrong. Is a GPR and a Hawken the same “design” or is there different characteristics of a GPR? I do like the looks of GPR’s but the Traditions version I held I could not stand.

No, I don't think so. I have owned two GPRs and then this Pedersoli RMH. They are similar. I think the looks on the GPR are pretty good, a fair approximation, certainly better than the fanciful "Hawkens" by CVA or Traditions with lots of brass and ornamental trigger guards.

The GPR lockwork is a modern coil spring. Great for reliability, but not authentic (although nobody can see it). The Pedersoli is 1:65, but IIRC, the Lyman (made by Investarms I believe) is 1:60.

As my GPR is in Texas and my RMH is with me in Europe, I haven't done any side by side comparison. I do think the Pedersoli is nicer, with better fit and finish, but it was also 40% more than the GPR. As I recall, my first GPR (stolen in the late 90's from a storage shed) had plain jain walnut. The replacement I bought around 2010 and that wood is just hideous...looks like stained plywood.

If one searches for Uberti Hawken, some look good, some do not. I don't know if those are different models or the difference between the Uberti design versus designs of others they manufactured.

Back in the early 90's, most "Hawkens" looked like the CVA, and much closer to the Traditions, which looks like a 3rd grader was told to make a drawing of a Pennsylvania rifle with a half-stock.

I like the GPR, and you should be able to get one for a very reasonable price. I think the older ones are better. They are fine, just the internals are modern. If one just wants to hunt, target shoot, and/or maybe attend the occasional historical event, the GPR is fine. If one wants a very attractive, historical representation of a plains rifle, and to do all those things, then a custom rifle might be justified.

I have two reference books I use, although I confess I haven't looked at them in a while:
> Hawken Rifles: The Mountain Main's Choice by John D. Baird, 1968
> The Plains Rifle by Charles E. Hanson, Jr., 1960

 

[William Sublette]

Yeah the old vintage GPRs are about as good as you can do , short of commissioning a custom plains rifle.

But there have been a couple sweet rifles show up here for sale as of late.

 

[CascadeRob]

No, I don't think so. I have owned two GPRs and then this Pedersoli RMH. They are similar. I think the looks on the GPR are pretty good, a fair approximation, certainly better than the fanciful "Hawkens" by CVA or Traditions with lots of brass and ornamental trigger guards.

The GPR lockwork is a modern coil spring. Great for reliability, but not authentic (although nobody can see it). The Pedersoli is 1:65, but IIRC, the Lyman (made by Investarms I believe) is 1:60.

As my GPR is in Texas and my RMH is with me in Europe, I haven't done any side by side comparison. I do think the Pedersoli is nicer, with better fit and finish, but it was also 40% more than the GPR. As I recall, my first GPR (stolen in the late 90's from a storage shed) had plain jain walnut. The replacement I bought around 2010 and that wood is just hideous...looks like stained plywood.

If one searches for Uberti Hawken, some look good, some do not. I don't know if those are different models or the difference between the Uberti design versus designs of others they manufactured.

Back in the early 90's, most "Hawkens" looked like the CVA, and much closer to the Traditions, which looks like a 3rd grader was told to make a drawing of a Pennsylvania rifle with a half-stock.

I like the GPR, and you should be able to get one for a very reasonable price. I think the older ones are better. They are fine, just the internals are modern. If one just wants to hunt, target shoot, and/or maybe attend the occasional historical event, the GPR is fine. If one wants a very attractive, historical representation of a plains rifle, and to do all those things, then a custom rifle might be justified.

I have two reference books I use, although I confess I haven't looked at them in a while:
> Hawken Rifles: The Mountain Main's Choice by John D. Baird, 1968
> The Plains Rifle by Charles E. Hanson, Jr., 1960

Sounds good. Yeah there was a I believe it was called an Uberti Santa Fe Hawken on GB last night that I threw a few bids on ( ended up loosing) it looked very nice. I guess I asked if the GPR and Hawken are similar or not because I like both, I guess when I say “Hawken” I desire the look not down to the last grain authentic Hawken. It doesn’t even necessarily has to be expensive I just thought maybe it’d be better quality? Has anyone messed with an Investarm Gemmer Hawken kit? I know Ethan from I love muzzleloading did a kit and it looked quite nice to me.

 

[Dan O]

2 weeks ago I saw a Pedersoli RMH at Capitol sports in Helena Mt. I checked the rifle out and was disappointed with the fit and stock condition. The butt plate had approximately a 1/16 of a inch space at the top, the stock was chipped near the nipple area. The lock was recessed in the stock leaving a notable lip. The price was $1,599.00 with was way too much for a sloppy built rifle.

 

[rmark]

You might check out the Pedersoli Tryon .54 MrDix has for sale a few spots down on the list, I have two .50's and a .45 creedmore version, all have been good guns for me.

 

[TxGR]

@CascadeRob - IIRC, the Uberti Santa Fe was actually made by Uberti in the US. They looked pretty nice.

The Investarms should be a dead ringer for the GPR because, according to what I read, the Lyman GPR was actually made by Investarms for Lyman. In fact, if you look at the Investarms publicity photos closely, the barrel literally reads "Great Plains Rifle" and, based on the unique wood grain, is the exact same photo last used by Lyman in their ads.

I think some get hung up on the "Hawken" name as if Jake and Samuel Hawken were the only two making decent rifles in the trapping era. There were scores of others in St. Louis alone.

Arguably, the first "plains rifle" was the Harper's Ferry M1803 rifle which (depending on which side one falls in the debate) were carried by Lewis & Clark, or inspired by the rifles Lewis & Clark had modified for the expedition: keyed, not pinned for easy disassembly; heavy; half-stock; shorter barrel; bigger bore; and minimalist furniture. That was long before Samuel Hawken joined other gunsmiths in St. Louis making rifles for trappers and AmerInds. By 1842, there were 17 gunsmiths in the St. Louis Directory, only four of whom were part of the larger J&S Hawken enterprise.

This is probably natural as folks also tend to focus on individuals like Kit Carson and Jim Bridger, considering whatever they used to be the definitive example.

Anyway, I suspect if a Ithaca/Cherry Corners Hawken, Uberti Santa Fe Hawken, Lyman Great Plains Rifle, Investarms Gemmer Hawken (aka model 160 or 170), or Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken where transported back to a late 1830's Rendezvous, they would not be out-of-place unless closely inspected.

For under $700, the Investarms probably meets most of your "needs."

 

[CascadeRob]

@CascadeRob - IIRC, the Uberti Santa Fe was actually made by Uberti in the US. They looked pretty nice.

The Investarms should be a dead ringer for the GPR because, according to what I read, the Lyman GPR was actually made by Investarms for Lyman. In fact, if you look at the Investarms publicity photos closely, the barrel literally reads "Great Plains Rifle" and, based on the unique wood grain, is the exact same photo last used by Lyman in their ads.

I think some get hung up on the "Hawken" name as if Jake and Samuel Hawken were the only two making decent rifles in the trapping era. There were scores of others in St. Louis alone.

Arguably, the first "plains rifle" was the Harper's Ferry M1803 rifle which (depending on which side one falls in the debate) were carried by Lewis & Clark, or inspired by the rifles Lewis & Clark had modified for the expedition: keyed, not pinned for easy disassembly; heavy; half-stock; shorter barrel; bigger bore; and minimalist furniture. That was long before Samuel Hawken joined other gunsmiths in St. Louis making rifles for trappers and AmerInds. By 1842, there were 17 gunsmiths in the St. Louis Directory, only four of whom were part of the larger J&S Hawken enterprise.

This is probably natural as folks also tend to focus on individuals like Kit Carson and Jim Bridger, considering whatever they used to be the definitive example.

Anyway, I suspect if a Ithaca/Cherry Corners Hawken, Uberti Santa Fe Hawken, Lyman Great Plains Rifle, Investarms Gemmer Hawken (aka model 160 or 170), or Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken where transported back to a late 1830's Rendezvous, they would not be out-of-place unless closely inspected.

For under $700, the Investarms probably meets most of your "needs."

Thank you for the bit of history, I enjoy reading about this type of stuff considering it’s hard to find many people who actually know, or care about firearm history, (whether or not I retain it is a whole other battle lol.) Nevertheless it’s funny you mentioned the Gemmer Hawken from Investarm because I ended up buying one from Muzzle-Loaders just today. Best part they have lefty kits, and being a south paw myself I figured it’s a great place to start for now. Maybe you manifested this for me??

On that note I appreciate everyone pitching in ideas and knowledge. I’ll probably withdraw this post for now!

 

[TxGR]

When you get it, let us see some pics and your progress finishing it. Cheers.