54 Cal TC Renegade for Elk hunt

[dldaniel]

Went again yesterday afternoon. Ranged out a full 100yards. I tried 90-120 grains of Triple 7 with both TC Maxi-Hunters(435 gr.) and Maxi-balls(430gr.). Ended up being the 90 gr. loads were the most consistent and both bullets had essentially the same POI. I was able to keep the shots inside a 4" group at 100yards with both. Not overly impressive groups but adequate for elk. The concern I have is that 90 gr. only produces 1260 FPS and 1540 Ft. Lbs at the muzzle.

Does this seem a little light for elk or does the mass of the bullet make up the difference. I am thinking it will still shoot completely through on a broadside shot out to 150 yds or so.

Anyone have experience with comparable loads?

Would Pyrodex possibly shoot tighter groups?

Thanks for your input.

 

[BrownBear]

I've shot elk with conventional handguns at about that velocity, launching "conical" .429 and .452 bullets that didn't weigh as much. Never shot past 50 yards, but always had one shot kills and through-and-through penetration on broadside shots.

I don't know about anything past 100 with muzzleloaders on elk, but would expect the same out to there at least simply due to the much heavier conical. Who knows about further? I'd say that if you're trying for through-and-through, the maxi is more likely to give it than the hunter.

Here's an interesting comparison for you- A group of muzzleloaders came to our place in the Southwest twice for elk. Three are 50 cal conical shooters and the other shot 54 RB. The first year all three 50 cals required second shots to finish their elk, while the 54 did the job in one shot. The next year only two of the 50 cal shooters came back, but this time with "better" conicals, while the 54 cal guy again opted for RB. Same results again. The 50 conicals were two-shooters and the 54 RB got it done with one.

All shots were inside 100 yards. Lots of variables in shot placement and animals, too. But the 54 cal guy was a much more experienced hunter and willing to work for and wait for just the right shot. He got full broadside shots on standing animals both times and placed his ball well. The 50 cal guys saw most of their elk on the move and took some angling shots as a result.

No comparison of RBs versus conicals here or 50 versus 54. Just proves once again the old point that it's where you stickem more than what you stickem with. And that hunting skills and patience are the royal flush in the poker game called hunting.

 

[Brik847]

I think it depends on your shot. Broadside, clear shot probably OK. Past 100, I'd start to think about it.

 

[dldaniel]

ok, so past 100 yards what would the concern be? Not enough remaining velocity? Too much drop? Less expansion? I have a TC Encore that is scoped and shoots like a center fire rifle, it is also legal.However, I am thinking it would be more fun to hunt with my Renegade. I am just so used to tight groups I wanted to stick with the lighter load (90 gr) as it gave the best groups out of those tried. I tried some of the Nosler 300 gr. sabot loads with 120 gr. T-7 and shot groups < 2". But I may as well shoot the Encore if I go that route.

 

[tg]

"". But I may as well shoot the Encore if I go that route.'

I would suggest that course if you need to shoot past 75yds for Elk, with pen iron sights and any ML projectile in the 50-58 cal 50=75 yds is a god goal to set for max range,long shot sre the number one reason I have seen for lost deer and Elk with ML hunting.

 

[Dphar]

Went again yesterday afternoon. Ranged out a full 100yards. I tried 90-120 grains of Triple 7 with both TC Maxi-Hunters(435 gr.) and Maxi-balls(430gr.). Ended up being the 90 gr. loads were the most consistent and both bullets had essentially the same POI. I was able to keep the shots inside a 4" group at 100yards with both. Not overly impressive groups but adequate for elk. The concern I have is that 90 gr. only produces 1260 FPS and 1540 Ft. Lbs at the muzzle.

Does this seem a little light for elk or does the mass of the bullet make up the difference. I am thinking it will still shoot completely through on a broadside shot out to 150 yds or so.

Anyone have experience with comparable loads?

Would Pyrodex possibly shoot tighter groups?

Thanks for your input.

If you are shooting these in a 48" twist you may find that they do not perform very well. The problem is that when fired from slow twists tend to veer off course. This means a bullet aimed for the heart and lungs may get one lung then the liver as it turns. This phenomenon is well documented back the 1850s.
I have not had this experience, since I shoot RBs at game but some Canadian shooters over on the American Longrifle site have related poor performance with these projectiles. They switched to larger bore rifles shooting round balls 69 caliber (480 gr ball).
I have never bothered with these things for several reasons. I would not hesitate an instant to shoot an elk in the lungs at 100 yards or perhaps a bit farther with a 54 round ball.
The 54 RB is not a great breaker of heavy bone though I did break the upper leg bone, humerous, on a big cow elk with a 54 RB and still got the arteries over the heart.
I built a 10 pound 16 bore (.662 ball weighs 437 gr.) for hunting. It will do anything I need done to 150 yards or so. I am using 140 gr of FFG Swiss for hunting shoots flat to 125 yards or so about 12" low at 150. Got within 30 yards of a cow elk 2 days ago but the law stipulated antlered bull in that area.......
Kills deer well though.
A round ball of equal weight will generally kill better than the conical.
If you can find a copy of Forsythe's The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" its a good read for ML hunters.
John Taylor's "Pondoro" has a short description of his using a 10 bore smoothbore on Elephant and Rhino when his modern ammo was lost in shipment. This is readily available Forsythe is harder to find and was last reprinted by the "Buckskin Press" in the 1970s so far as I know.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

Went again yesterday afternoon. Ranged out a full 100yards. I tried 90-120 grains of Triple 7 with both TC Maxi-Hunters(435 gr.) and Maxi-balls(430gr.). Ended up being the 90 gr. loads were the most consistent and both bullets had essentially the same POI. I was able to keep the shots inside a 4" group at 100yards with both. Not overly impressive groups but adequate for elk. The concern I have is that 90 gr. only produces 1260 FPS and 1540 Ft. Lbs at the muzzle.

Does this seem a little light for elk or does the mass of the bullet make up the difference. I am thinking it will still shoot completely through on a broadside shot out to 150 yds or so.

Anyone have experience with comparable loads?

Would Pyrodex possibly shoot tighter groups?

Thanks for your input.

Lead bullets kill better than there paper ballisitcs would indicate. Judging most BP arms by the energy criteria alone is a mistake. The bullet diameter increases effectiveness even at what would be very low levels for a modern bullet with a pointed nose and a copper jacket. These HAVE to have velocity to work. The large diameter bullet simply needs adequate penetration.
One must remember that the 1/2 ounce trade ball was the standard big game projectile in the Western US from before Lewis & Clark till about 1870. It was used much longer than that in Canada by the natives if my information is correct.
It has become popular to denigrate the round ball as a hunting projectile. Just like the advent of the various magnums has supposedly killed off the 30-06. Its largely hype generated in order to sell products for companies advertising in magazines or funding people to use their rifle/caliber/sabot/bullet etc. If the RB is good enough you don't need what they make. Thus the RB is bad, deficient, will not penetrate, etc etc.
Used within its range, 80-100 yards a .530 rb WILL kill elk easily. With good shooting and good luck it will kill farther but bullet drop from line of sight and wind drift becomes a problem.
Hunters will have "problems" with any firearm they hunt with regardless of projectile if the shot is poorly placed. Failure to kill quickly or disable is ALWAYS related to poor shot placement or using to light a bullet in something like a 243 or 25-06.
Animals can cover a LOT of ground in just a few seconds. Thus a deer or elk that can stay on its feet for 10 seconds, may go 100-200 yards even though its dead in 10 seconds. Thus a good kill shot can result in the animal making tracks if the spine, brain or pelvis is not struck.
I did base of the throat shot on a mule deer doe with a 16 bore rb at 50 yards taking out the heart and she still ran 50 yards. Not very well but she *was* running.
I have seen them run much farther shot in the chest with 7mm mags, and live a lot longer shot in the guts with it.

My concerns are over the slow twist, if you have such a barrel, is that even a perfectly placed shot may miss the vitals. I had this experience twice last year with 45-70 commercial ammo (the "new" bullet design stinks) on mule deer and can tell you it WILL interfere with clean kills or at best turn a good lung shot into a green mess at field dressing.

Dan

 

[dldaniel]

So then, with the 1:48" twist, would I be better off using the PRB then a conical? I agree with the shot placement aspects and don't intend to take an "iffy" shot. I am Meat hunting and Cows and calves are on the menu. I don't want to take anything but an optimum shot regardless of what I am shooting. Can I expect better performance from a PRB both for groups and also after penetration, i.e. not veering off course once inside the animal?

Also, thanks for all the responses, really appreciate the help.

Dave

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Use what you know will hit where you want it to. A 4" group at 100 yards with almost an ounce of lead is very promising. That chunk of lead will do the job because of it's extreme mass. You might be able to narrow your group down even more by using an over-powder wad or card before the conical to cut down on blow-by and gas cutting the rear of the conical.

Happy Thanks Giving!

Dave

 

[paulvallandigham]

Short lengthed conicals will shoot in a 1:48" twist, where the longer conicals( heavier, too) will not. The longer, heavier conicals need a faster twist rate to stabilize.

The LEE R.E.A.L. slugs are designed to be shot in the 1:48" ROT barrels. If they don't shoot to the level of accuracy in your gun that you like, then stick with the PRB. In a .54 cal. rifle, the ball weights 230 grains, or more than 1/2 Oz. That is a huge hunk of lead, compared to any modern bullet being used regularly to hunt Elk. It has killed thousands of ELK in the past 175 years.

 

[4440]

I spent a lot of range time a few months ago working up a load for my .54 Renegade to use during the Colorado muzzleloading season in September. Did not have any luck with the elk. Can't tell you what it would do to an elk, but it looks good on paper. I used a maxi-ball weighing 405 grains (I cast my own) with 110 grains of 2F. The velocity averaged 1330 fps. Accuracy was excellent at 25 and 50 yards 1" to 1 1/2" and about 4" at 100 yards (shooting off the bench). This is with 1-48 twist.I decided to use this load rather than a roundball because of the weight of the maxi-ball and the energy it has down range. The twist handles the maxis just fine. That being said, the other two hunters with me were using custom made 54's loaded with roundballs, one with 140 grains and the other with 110 grains. Both have slower twist barrels. Some years ago I watched a large cow elk hit by a roundball pushed by 140 grains of 2F at about 40yds. The shot was through the neck with the cow facing the hunter at about a 30 degree angle. The shot killed the cow quickly and penetrated to the rear flank. We all strive for the best shot placement on a game animal but sometimes heavy resistance to penetration is caused by bone. That is where a heavy projectile is most important.

 

[rbfree]

I dont know about a 54 but I have a 58 cabelas rifle that I shot a 3x4 elk with 110 grains of 2f and a PRB .570 .018 pillow ticking with tc bore butter. I hit him high at 84 yards and it blew through breaking the spine. Ate good.

 

[faw3]

Don't want to tick off any of the long time hunter here, I've been at it since 71 myself and something is wrong, back then and thru thru the 70s Muzz Blast had lots of kills at 100 to 200yds and more. Are they makeing the PRB different now ?? :shake: " I would not hesitate an instant to shoot an elk in the lungs at 100 yards or perhaps a bit farther with a 54 round ball."
I have and would again if I still hunted. So AZ Dave I dont know about PRB vs Con's I would use I'd use Great Plains HB-HP is what I used out of a 1X66 twist Mowrey 120 of 2f. back in the day (when they said you couldn't shoot those out of that your 1X48 will at them up. :hatsoff: Fred

 

[dldaniel]

It seems to me if I am able to hold a 4-5" group at a true 100yds with open sights (I am not a great open sight shooter), the Maxi's must be stabilizing. They are definitely not key holing. I don't quite understand the phenomenon of the bullet changing direction once inside the animal. I can see that happening with a light fast projectile, but hard to see it happen with such a slow heavy projectile. Is this a common thing to happen?

 

[roundball]

It's not an issue with a maxi-HUNTER...just the maxi-BALL due to it's design.

The way the mushroom shaped nose of a maxi-BALL sits atop a skinny post of lead, one side has been known to get bent/tilted on impact, then with the nose symmetry gone, the slug will steer off the main line of travel as a result of that deformed nose on one side.

 

[thumbs]

Ok I live in Pa. Whitetail is our game. I can tell ya I shot the largest buck of my life with an ole T/C Scout carbine in .54 and using a conical. This was the most unusual shot of my life also. I don't get to many long shots around here in the woods but this was different. I had a broke ankle and couldn't walk to far with my gear on crutches so I had a nice little place on the ground over looking a little valley picked out that I could walk to without haveing to go to far. Well out of no where on the other side of the valley came this hugh buck. He was out there but it was an open shot. I knew the conical would drop quite a bit so I lined up on the top of his back and touched er off. The buck just stood there for a couple of seconds, then walked about five steps. I could have swarn I missed him. I started to reload when he fell over. Dead before he hit the ground I imagin. That shot was in the area of 140yards. Right through the heart. Don't know how much larger elk are than that deer but I was impressed with the energy at that range. Now field dressin, with a cast on my leg, and gettin him back to the truck, on crutches, is another story for another day.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Every rifle is different, but my two TC Hawkens one in 50 and another in 54 both shoot Hornady great plains bullet very well. In the 50 I use the 385 gr bullet and in the 54 the 390 gr bullet. Both are hollow point and hollow base and I use felt wads under the bullets for best results. Both rifles will shoot ok with the TC maxie balls or maxie hunters but not as well as with the great plains bullets. The great plains bullet do load much harder, which may be why they shoot so well for me. Your rifle may prefere something else, ya just have to keep trying till you find it.

 

[Bill Hall]

One of my elk hunting buddies took a huge 6x6 with a .54 renegade using a T/C maxiball. We all agreed that the shot was over 150 yards and the elk dropped right where he stood. He was standing broadside and was hit square in the ribcage. With a dead elk on the ground, I just couldn't find a good argument to tell my friend that I thought the shot was too far :wink: