Conical Terminal Performance Research

[lone hunter]

Hornaday bullets recovered from a couple bulls.

 

[Mad Professor]

I know you won't understand because you don't shoot the Lee 500S&W bullet, but the difference is outstanding. The bullets make a loud WHOMP when they hit. Deer always are taken off their feet. All of the elk I have shot were on the ground right where they were hit.
A bullet transferring all it's energy and staying inside the animal is a failure in my opinion. The Hornady expands too much, and too fast. That reduces penetration. That same bullet used on an elk is a lost elk.
A Hornady might be fine for a 100 pound doe. But that is not what we are talking about.
A tree 4" in diameter fell to a shot? Are you sticking with that story?
After it penetrated a deer?
You are sticking with that story?

Yes, Ron sticking with the story. Deer was ~130lb doe at ~ 25yds in a swamp. My 58 525gr max load 90gr FFg.

It blew right through the deer like it was not hit. Deer didn't know it was already dead.

I had a similar experience with my 54, but didn't kill any trees I know of. Again blew right through. Deer ran flat out, dead on it's feet, straight into a big oak tree. Broke it's neck hitting the tree.

Interesting. Out of curiosity, were those GPs you were using hollow points or flat nose? As Ron pointed out, the only GPs thar exist now or can be found without casting are hollow points. However, I keep coming across references to flat points. These would be awfully similar in shape, construction, and sectional density to No Excuses 420 grain slugs, which I'm interested in trying.

I do have some 385 Grain 50 cal GPs on hand and the other day decided to actually examine them. One thing I did not realize was that in addition to the hollow point, the base is concave. Presumably this is to aid in obturation in the style of a minie ball, but I wonder if that may detract from integrity.

To give credit to spikebuck, I'm definitely over thinking things. It's kind of what I do

. In general I'm aware that all these bullets will "do the job" one way or the other. I suppose I'm just trying to get some realistic idea of how these all operate and perform so that I may plan/adjust accordingly. And of course, testing accuracy will dictate more than most else.

Yes, they were all hollow point design, never tried the flat nose ones. The GP bullets are tapered and load easily. The first band usually don't engage the rifling. The hollow base expands with the charge sealing the base. I've found wonder wads help with fouling and accuracy. I never bothered with trying paper patches, as 100yds is a long shot here and I have good accuracy.

The Buffalo bullets are similar but are knurled, load harder as knurled not tapered w/bands, and have thicker base. A few vary in diameter, but I check them with calipers and the smaller ones I cull for practice. I've plenty as I got a lot of 720 for $40 years back. So culls go to off-hand practice. I'm generous with the lube.

Crappy pictures from my dumb phone

 

[Rifleman1776]

FWIW: I once tried a highly un-scientific experiment regarding conicals vs. round ball. Using my Ruger Old Army with max loads I shot into a half rotted stump. Both projectiles I had cast with pure soft lead. Range was close, about ten feet. The conicals just went into the stump and left a small hole. The round balls tore deep, fist sized chunks out of the wood. I sold the conical mould and stayed with good old round balls.

 

[Mad Professor]

FWIW: I once tried a highly un-scientific experiment regarding conicals vs. round ball. Using my Ruger Old Army with max loads I shot into a half rotted stump. Both projectiles I had cast with pure soft lead. Range was close, about ten feet. The conicals just went into the stump and left a small hole. The round balls tore deep, fist sized chunks out of the wood. I sold the conical mould and stayed with good old round balls.

How fat was the stump?

 

[Idaho Ron]

Yes, Ron sticking with the story. Deer was ~130lb doe at ~ 25yds in a swamp. My 58 525gr max load 90gr FFg.

It blew right through the deer like it was not hit. Deer didn't know it was already dead.

I don't doubt that at that range and animal size that it blew through.
But then the bullet took out a 4" diameter tree?
I will tell you what I would be willing to bet that you can not replicate knocking over a tree that size.
I will even let you shoot the tree twice.
I'm callin bull

 

[Mad Professor]

I don't doubt that at that range and animal size that it blew through.
But then the bullet took out a 4" diameter tree?
I will tell you what I would be willing to bet that you can not replicate knocking over a tree that size.
I will even let you shoot the tree twice.
I'm callin bull

3" tree?, 4" might have been exageration. It was close to size of my wrist, and it fell over. Pine and it had a snowload on it. This was in the 1980s before cell phone cameras, so I can't go find the tree.

Ron, your exploits at long range BP hunting far exceed mine, and I enjoy your posts.

For here in the eastern woods 100 yds is a long shot and a PRB or a conical work fine. I'm sure your bullets work better.

I doubt I'll ever use up the case of 50 cal Buffalo bullets I got. They do good in both a Renegade and TC Hawken that have 1-28 GM barrels. I was getting flyers until I found that some should be sized. I use those for practice now.

 

[Rifleman1776]

How fat was the stump?

Spring time, it was still putting on weight. Actually, about two feet in diameter.

 

[Bustacap]

Not sure what the rules/etiquette are for responding to an old thread but I just found this and was curious , Madyankee, what you came up with for a load? I recently acquired a WMC and hunt in the same scenarios , deer /bear in thick woods. I have had great results shooting the hornady pa conical 240 and 75 gr shuetzen 2F . It’s a bit tight to start but then slides ok . I’m hoping the tight fit will keep it on the powder. I cant wait to see how it stacks up to round balls and 245/295 unmentionables I’ve used in other ML’s on deer. My only bear so far fell to a 12ga slug .

 

[smokepolehall]

You do not want to use the GP .50 cal 385 gr HP/HB, i have half a box sitting on my work table. They came apart in several pieces shooting through several gal water jugs.

 

[flintlock75]

Afternoon folks.

I was looking to pick some brains regarding terminal performance if various conical bullets. I have yet to do any real group testing with my 50 Cal WMC, other than the resident old fart and I messing around on our range with an 80 grain charge of 2f Schutzen and some 350 grain TC Maxi hunters (which actually gave decent results). I have measured the rifling twist using the old patch/ramrod technique, and found it to be the old 1:20 twist TC initially made these rifles in. Based on that, I'd predict that this rifle is built more specifically for conical bullets than round balls.

Anyhow, my hunting scenario is a bit specific. I tend to be hunting both Whitetails and Black Bear at close range in brushy cover. As our general Bear and muzzy deer seasons completely overlap, I'm trying to develop a load that would be workable for both. As stated, we tested the 350 MH, but I also have 385 Hornady GPs to try. Does anybody have experience driving these through game at close range, or has used other conical in a similar scenario? Obviously shot placement is the main thing, but I'm curious to ask those with experience.

Edit: Fixed a number of typos.

I hunt with a .54 cal gun, in my TC NewEnglander, I use the 425 gr hbhc Great Plains bullets, 110gr 3f, shoots 1.5” groups at 100 yards. The majority of My shots are under 50 yards, taken many moose and caribou with this load. I have never recovered a spent round, all went through the animal. Average is a 3-4” exit hole. Careful placement saves the meat

 

[Steve Wagner]

50 cal Hornady GP HP shot into a wet silt/sand bank at 25 yards at 1530 fps.

Haven't shot live game with it and this was just a whim to see what the expansion would be.
View attachment 217146View attachment 217147

You might also take a look at No Excuses 50 cal bullets They offer a sizing pack to get the exact fit you want and a variety of nice conicals that have shown respectable accuracy in a variety of guns and twists.
https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/shop/

Well, Chorizo, I have the exact same bullet that my son in law and I pulled from the off side of a nice whitetail buck after it traveled through over 24" of flesh.[Quartering shot] Except that his bullet is a lot smoother, the expansion looks about the same. The front end looks polished. 70 grains of t-7 at 35 yards from a TC Hawken. It expanded to exactly 1" and the only weight it lost was whatever lube Hornady put on it to start with. Very effective in my book. I did wonder if the hollow point cavity was a bit excessive so I tested some in 12" of saturated phone books where I filled the cavity with paraffin wax. They expanded even more violently and penetrated less this way than with the open hollow point. In fact, out of my 50 Hawken, the unwaxed bullet went through all 12" of medium and blew a 1" hole through a piece of 5/8" Trex facia I had placed in the back of the box as a stopper. I was unable to recover it. There is not a bone in a deer tougher than that stuff. Same load as my son in law's deer but at 25 yards [pretty close in power to 80 grains of black]. The waxed bullet made it to the Trex, but bounced off and I did recover that one. It lost about 100 grains of lead and that loss was the perimeter of the mushroom, which marked the facia accordingly, reducing it's final expansion to about 3/4". I may try filling the cavity near to the top with epoxy next time just to see if there is much difference. I have read of others doing so, but have seen no real results. Obviously, the paraffin had the opposite effect of what I had hoped for. As it stands, I think Hornady knew what is was doing with this design. It is also quite accurate in all 3 of my rifles. I have killed a lot of animals with their bullets. Only the one described so far with this particular bullet. SW

 

[tenngun]

Afternoon folks.

I was looking to pick some brains regarding terminal performance if various conical bullets. I have yet to do any real group testing with my 50 Cal WMC, other than the resident old fart and I messing around on our range with an 80 grain charge of 2f Schutzen and some 350 grain TC Maxi hunters (which actually gave decent results). I have measured the rifling twist using the old patch/ramrod technique, and found it to be the old 1:20 twist TC initially made these rifles in. Based on that, I'd predict that this rifle is built more specifically for conical bullets than round balls.

Anyhow, my hunting scenario is a bit specific. I tend to be hunting both Whitetails and Black Bear at close range in brushy cover. As our general Bear and muzzy deer seasons completely overlap, I'm trying to develop a load that would be workable for both. As stated, we tested the 350 MH, but I also have 385 Hornady GPs to try. Does anybody have experience driving these through game at close range, or has used other conical in a similar scenario? Obviously shot placement is the main thing, but I'm curious to ask those with experience.

Edit: Fixed a number of typos.

A lot of the post above are about advantages of a conical over a ball. However your scenario is in brush cover. I hunt in the Ozarks and just don’t see game with clear good shots at much more then fifty yards at the most.
Inside fifty yards there is no advantage n terms of dead deer of any one type of projectile provided you hit in a critical zone.
Balls just shed velocities in no time. A 2000 fps ball slows to 1100 fps at a hundred yards. A 1100 fps ball slows to 8-900 in that range.
It is the long range that a conical keeps its velocity and its power.
At fifty yards a ball will go through and through a deer or pig or black bear, the extra Ft pounds you get from a conical won’t make ‘em deader.
So throw away the ballistic books and count on making small groups. If you can hit a saucer at fifty yards every shot you will put meat on the table, ball, real,maxi, ballett or any other type of conical
Bear buffs and deer were all almost wiped out in the east by guys shooting ball

 

[nhmoose]

Been hunting exclusively with flintlocks over the last 33 years. From .40 cal to 20 gauge. All roundballs have exited what I shoot from moose, deer and bear. No ball to recover.

All shots under 50yards. 300-yard shots I would pass on even with a modern highspeed suppository gun. Note I am in NH

 

[Bustacap]

I hunt with a .54 cal gun, in my TC NewEnglander, I use the 425 gr hbhc Great Plains bullets, 110gr 3f, shoots 1.5” groups at 100 yards. The majority of My shots are under 50 yards, taken many moose and caribou with this load. I have never recovered a spent round, all went through the animal. Average is a 3-4” exit hole. Careful placement saves the meat

That load sounds stout on both ends!

 

[Bustacap]

Just to be clear I’m not dissing the round ball, i’ve taken 2 deer with them ,years ago , and both were basically DRT but neither were “passthroughs” . Putting one through a moose is impressive!

 

[ETipp]

50 cal Hornady GP HP shot into a wet silt/sand bank at 25 yards at 1530 fps.

Haven't shot live game with it and this was just a whim to see what the expansion would be.
View attachment 217146View attachment 217147

You might also take a look at No Excuses 50 cal bullets They offer a sizing pack to get the exact fit you want and a variety of nice conicals that have shown respectable accuracy in a variety of guns and twists.
https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/shop/

I'm actually considering trying the Hornady GPB out of my .50 on deer. All I have ever used on deer and elk has been hand cast Maxi Balls. Never an issue one with them and no animal has made it past a very few steps after being hit. But for grins, I still want to try the GPB. They are accurate out of my .50 New Englander. The only thing I did not like about them is after starting them in the muzzle, they seat way too easy, which gives me pause from concerns of them possibly moving off the charge. I reckon a fella could always run the ramrod down to check every now and then on a hunt.

 

[Ol Bob]

I'm actually considering trying the Hornady GPB out of my .50 on deer. All I have ever used on deer and elk has been hand cast Maxi Balls. Never an issue one with them and no animal has made it past a very few steps after being hit. But for grins, I still want to try the GPB. They are accurate out of my .50 New Englander. The only thing I did not like about them is after starting them in the muzzle, they seat way too easy, which gives me pause from concerns of them possibly moving off the charge. I reckon a fella could always run the ramrod down to check every now and then on a hunt.

I've been using the TC Maxi balls as well, no troubles, but have thought about changing to the GPBs as well. Now i'm not so sure...with elk and bear are on the menu every year. Hmmmm

 

[ETipp]

I've been using the TC Maxi balls as well, no troubles, but have thought about changing to the GPBs as well. Now i'm not so sure...with elk and bear are on the menu every year. Hmmmm

Ya know, last night I dug into my magic closet of ML stuff and ran across some Maxi Balls I casted last year. Considering I have had nothing but very good results with them, its easy to maintain confidence in the old Maxi's and somewhat difficult to change to something else. So I'm struggling with the idea of trying something different. If I make a change it will be the GPB.

Ya know, videos are videos and can be misleading. However, after much research on different ML projectiles, as well as from my own experiences, there's something about a big old solid chunk of lead being fired from a ML and into a big game critter that flat works. As much studying I have done for well over 40 years on ballistics, it still is somewhat of a mystery of how a Maxi Ball puts big game down fast even though they do not expand. Its bore size going in and bore size exiting through the innards/meat. Right up to the point that a Maxi Ball hits solid bone. Then its a huge hole.

Interesting for sure.

One area I hunted last year and scored is a large thicket. And I do mean thicket. Full of briars to the degree that it will eat a person up when trying to walk through it. I hunt the edges of that thicket from up higher on the hillside where I can see down into it where the deer regularly travel. Last year I killed a buck and even though it was somewhat on the edge of the thicket, when I got down there I walked right by that dead buck several times looking for it. The buck was only a few feet away. Therefore, I definitely need to put the deer down on the spot. Last thing I need is to try to track one into that thicket. As I have said, so far the Maxi Balls has put them down in short order. However, if I encounter one time where a deer runs off a ways, then I will definitely be considering trying the GPB. However, I would not use it on elk or bear.

No doubt a lower neck shot would be best for such thick grounds IF it is doable. I've yet to see a deer go anywhere but straight down after being hit in the neck with anything.

 

[stikshooter]

You'd be amazed at what I've seen fail to properly penetrate and or leave nigh un trackable blood trails due to shoddy construction. Plus having realistic ideas as to how various bullets perform is useful. Without mentioning subjects that are verboten on this board, I've seen certain "conicals" which 100 percent did not "plow on through," rather they entered one one side and exploded. Not my preferred method of hunting any big game and certainly not a scenario I'd like to try on a bear.

Because you have no idea on killing with lead and black powder ! Speed ain't in the picture ,weight is , 4-500 grain over 12-1300 fps will get end to end pass thru on anything walking in (wait for it) BP range ,know your yardage/gun/projectile and it becomes very predictable (blood trail/death/full freezer ) works every time unless you mess up ./Ed

 

[ETipp]

My experience with conicals is all in .54 in slower twist 1-65 Pedersoli barrels.

Hornady GP were what worked for me (as far as conicals in those barrels). All but one whitetail I shot with these was a pass through at ranges from under 20 to 100 yards, give or take. Only ever had one that stayed in which was on a 7 1/2 yo whitetail buck that exceeded 200# dressed weight. 89 yards with 90gr of 777. Penetrated bone, blew the heart apart, penetrated bone again and was a lump under the skin on the other side. He bucked at the shot and bolted 30 yards uphill. Pics attached. Mushroomed slug only lost about 2-3 grs of a 425 gr conical. Side note: -12F ambient air temp with 15 to 20 mph winds when I took that buck, so extreme conditions. Hope that gives you a view of "terminal performance."View attachment 217873
View attachment 217872
View attachment 217871

Frankly, though, my experience with my .54's and round ball has been every bit as satisfying. I've taken a lot of large northern whitetail from near point blank to as far as 115 yards with a PRB and now that's exclusively what I hunt with.

A few months old thread but but I am surprised that you have obtained good accuracy out of a slow twist (1:65) barrel shooting a conical. Could you please elaborate on your accuracy at 50 to 100 yards? I have entertained trying some conical(s) out of my .54 GPR but have read accuracy generally is not great out of such slower twist barrels.