54 or 58 half stock rifle thoughts

[KHickam]

Hey guys, thinking of getting a decent flintlock production rifle in 54 or 58 - looking mostly at the GPR - but are there any others out there that I should look at and try to find - gonna be my primary hunting gun if I get out West agin - already have 50 caliber rifle and 62 fowler :thumbsup:

 

[Rifleman1776]

Short of grizzly bars, the .54 will down any critter on the continent.
Why use more lead and powder when not needed?
And, a .58 kicks more.
And, personally, I wouldn't risk using even a .58 on a grizzle bar.

 

[merdean]

I like .54. I have 3 of them. The 1 .58 I had would not group at all. And my shoulder got pounded. A lot of people here like .58. So you have a decision to make. Yours and yours alone. Happy shooting. :wink: :hmm:

Merdean

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I recently sold my two .58 calibers because after playing with them for a couple of years I have reverted to the conclusion I originally reached more than 40 years ago, that above .54 caliber the downside out weighs the questionable advantage. Aside from the fact that it costs more to practice and plink with a bigger caliber the main downside is recoil. Everyone has their own tolerance level but for me I couldn't comfortably handle more than 80 grains of 2f in my .58's where as the .54 was fine with 100 grains of 3f. The .54 ball was running about 400 fps faster than the .58 and that flattened the trajectory enough that I could hold the same from muzzle to 100+ yards, whereas the more looping trajectory of the .58 required a bit of guess work as to where to hold for the distance. Also, if you think you might ever want to shoot conicals the difference becomes even greater, I personally feel the .50 is the largest I care to go with conical bullets.
But if you are set on the Lyman GPR it is a moot question because they don't offer .58 caliber.

 

[Lonegun1894]

I have always been told that in the production guns, the TC Hawken and the Lyman GPR are about equal, along with Pedersoli, but a step above any other production guns, while being possibly a step below the semi-custom and custom pieces. My TC Hawken (1x) is about equal to my GPRs (3x), so you know where my preference lies. But I can't really comment as to the caliber in the TC as my TC is a .45 FL, while my GPRs are a .50 FL, a .54 FL, and a .54 GM smoothbore FL. I dont have a .58, but also dont need it hunting my area in TX, as you know having spent time here near the fort.

 

[BrownBear]

Hey guys, thinking of getting a decent flintlock production rifle in 54 or 58 - looking mostly at the GPR - but are there any others out there that I should look at and try to find - gonna be my primary hunting gun if I get out West agin - already have 50 caliber rifle and 62 fowler :thumbsup:

You'll have to go some to find a production 58 caliber unless you get into the military styles. Lyman barrels are 15/16", and lawyereze has convinced the companies stop producing 15/16" barrels in 58 caliber. Since TC once made a 1" version of their Hawken and Renegades, there are GM 58 cal drop-in barrels floating around, plus there's the Big Boar 58 cal version of the Renegade. You can also have any competent gunsmith make you up a 58 cal barrel.

After that, you're down to Fords and Chevies on 54 cal versus 58. In my experience you just won't notice a single-caliber jump all that much when adding calibers to your spread. In other words, going from a 50 to a 54 in your case, you'll kinda wonder if it was worth it all. But going from a 50 to a 58 is eye opening.

On the practical side, if your 62 cal fowler is light and you're shooting stiff loads, you won't wimp out on a 58, yet you'll add a lot of range potential.

BTW- Once upon a time before the lawyers got so busy promoting themselves, Investarms (the company that makes Lyman guns) turned out half-stocks with 15/16" barrels in 58 cal. They made them for Cabelas and sold some under their own label IIRC. Every once in a while those turn up on the used market. I picked up a Cabelas version, and it's turned into my most-used 58 cal because it's noticeably lighter and balances better for my tastes. I also have a couple of Big Boars, and I think the Investarms is a lot better in spite of the Cabelas name on the barrel.

Do you NEED a 58 caliber out west rather than a 54? That's the kind of question your wife will ask you, but a friend wouldn't do it! :rotf:

BTW- Every gun I've mentioned is a capper. IIRC there were no production 58's, though at one time Green Mountain turned out a few few drop-in 58 cal flint barrels to fit TC's.

 

[Dphar]

Hey guys, thinking of getting a decent flintlock production rifle in 54 or 58 - looking mostly at the GPR - but are there any others out there that I should look at and try to find - gonna be my primary hunting gun if I get out West agin - already have 50 caliber rifle and 62 fowler :thumbsup:

Most "American rifle" stock designs are maxed out at 54.
The 58 is a good caliber and has more power than the 54. But it may take more powder than most people want to shoot to get accuracy.
None of the factory mades are something I would want to shoot a 58 in based on stock design.
The various Hawken buttplates on the market, and most/all originals I have been able to see were maxed out at 54.
I have a friend with a "Hawken" in 58. But it has a 32" x 1 1/8" barrel. The 58 Hawken I built years ago used a Numrich barrel and it was actually about .032" larger than the advertized 1 1/8". Rifle weighed about 13 pounds. But I could shoot 120 gr of powder with no pain.
So unless you are looking at an Kentucky design like an early Dickert/JP Beck or having someone build you a rifle with a better buttplate than the typical Hawken and probably a heavier barrel. You are better off staying with 54.
I hunt a lot in MT with a 50 and would shoot at elk with it. Its light but with shot placement it will work as was proven historically and at current times.
With the increase in Gbear activity in the "Yellowstone ecosystem" a 58 or larger might be in order. Larger than 58 the need for an English style sporting rifle becomes more and more apparent. The 69 can be tolerated in a 10 pound rifle in Manton or Purdey designs. In an American rifle stock design its not practical.
Nor is in completely to do with recoil tolerance of the shooter. Heavy recoiling rifles need to be held consistently. Shooting a crescent but off the arm style does not work all that well with the heavy recoil and calibers over 54-58 will make heavy recoil if loaded to 1600 fps.
If anyone doubts any of this make or buy a Leman Trade Rifle in 58 or 62 with the typical 1" barrel.
This one was a fullstock 54 "Connestoga Rifle Works" Leman from 1840.

Dan

 

[BrownBear]

Very wise points on stock style versus caliber and recoil, Dan. I have a 62 cal flint "long rifle" style with the crescent butt, and it's taken me quite a while to learn to shoot it well. Even with only 120 grains of powder it's a painful experience for anyone who wants to try it and isn't prepped. With a better stock design like ESR, the same 120 grain charge is a pussycat.

Even in 58 cal, when you move over 120 grain charges, you'll pine for a different stock architecture or a heavier gun. My GRRW 58 is fine with 140 grain charges, but it weighs 12 pounds. I've never taken the light (around 7.5# pounds) Investarms 58 past 110 grains AND I DON'T PLAN TO DO SO! :shocked2: It's a delight to carry compared to that GRRW 58, but I limit my charges to 100 grains with the resulting loss in trajectory.

 

[KHickam]

Would it be possible/practical to buy a Euroarms 1803 and send the lock out to get tweeked to function flawlessly?

 

[VEARL]

I have a T. C. 58 Cal Big Boar and I have no problems with excessive recoil. I shoot 100 gr of 2F BP and a patched .570 RB.
Have a 50 Cal in a lyman Great Plains Rifle. My load is 80 GR of 3F BP. I get more recoil from it than I do the T. C. Think that is from the sharp cresent style butt plate.
Still both are good guns to have and to hunt with.

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

I always say buy the gun you want. If you want it what others feel is irrelevant. I shoot a .54 all the time and continously get manure from the other shooters especially when it comes to driving nails, splitting bullets on axe blades, cutting cards or feathers in half. Sure ball size makes a difference but I also tolerate a heavier gun with more kick as well so to each their own. For paper matches I shoot a 40 cal because as you know most score by the center of the ball so no advantage there. I don't think theres a gun none of us shouldn't own..

 

[nkbj]

My .58 flinter is a rebored Renegade. It's relatively cheap and excellent for my purposes which are confined to big fun and dependable delivery of big lead where wanted.

 

[Greg Blackburn]

Any competent gunsmith can make up a .58 caliber barrel?

So if I wanted to get my .54 (rusty) bored out to .58 and rifled it should be possible?

If so, any guesses as to cost?

I'd like to salvage this rusty bore if possible but if not I'd like to at least do something else with it.

Greg

 

[nkbj]

Sending PM.

 

[MattyB]

I, too, had my .50 Renegade converted to flint, bored out and rifled to .58, and set in a full stock with traditional sights etc... It's a work in progress, but it shoots like a dream.
The re-bore was done by Bob Hoyt, I'm sure a search will turn up his contact info. I was amazed at how little he charged.

 

[Greg Blackburn]

Well this is good news and the PM message really hit home.

Now however, there may be hope to save even more money. The .54 seller sent me an email and it stated "he'd work with me" so hopefully that'll include taking the rifle back. I really want a .54 and since a .58 is coming in two days, I don't need two.

BUT, it's been neat learning how a rusty ML barrel can be rebored and rerifled, I think I'll have a .54 barrel made if I have to resort to such....TC 54's are rare it seems!

Greg

 

[Greg Blackburn]

Wow!

How did you convert a caplock Renegade to a flintlock?

Greg

 

[MattyB]

If I remember right, there is a tutorial of sorts here on the forum somewhere, but basically I replaced the breech plug with one for a rocklock, and put on an L&R lock. That's pretty much it. There is another DIY way to do it shown somewhere on here.

If I could find a closer to HC/PC trigger guard and butplate, I think I would really be in business.