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.54 or .58

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alaskasmoker

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Looking at some of the charts available and reading my guide to muzzloading guns, it seems as if the .54 is superior to the .58

The .54 generates higher velocities, and FT/LBS of energy (by quite a bit) than a .58 and with only a 50 grain lighter round ball,

I went out and bought a .58 before I even had a clue what I was doing. I figured the 58 would have more stopping power than a .54

Again refering back to the book and some older posts. Most info says use either a .54 or .58 and you should be fine.

So all things being equal in guns and loads wich one of these is the most thump?

Is this .58 going to be good for moose?
 
Yes. Im sure the .58 will be fine. Most of these charts talking about ft lbs compare the 2 calibers with the same powder charge. It doesent make sense to me to make a comparison in that manner. You should have to expect to use more powder to achieve the same velocity with a heavier ball. If the velocities were the same of course the .58 would have greater ft lbs. IF you compare them both with say 80 grains ffg the .54 will seem superior. But I highly doubt if the start velocity was the same you would see that. I expect to stoke my .58 with 110-120 grains ffg to get the same velocity as a .54 with about 85. One fella here chrongraphed his .58 with FFg KIK powder and I belive he was getting about 1600 with 110 grains.
I have no experience hunting moose but I'll bet most would take the .58 for that size game.
 
In fact I just searched and saw the post again. Its From Idaho PRB He states a .570 ball with a 100 grains ffg KIK at 1530 and 1600 fps for 110 grains KIK. Probably a litttle slower with Goex. But compare a 54 at 1600 and a 58 at 1600fps and Im sure the ft lbs will be superior for the .58. It just takes more powder to get i up to that velocity.
 
The .58 will be most definitely more powerful than the .54, if the balls, or bullets are sent out at the same velocities. Try using Killing Power to analyse the results. Velocity times Weight, time caliber, divided by 100 = KP. Not, this formula gives equal weight to caliber, and velocity and weight, which is just as arbitrary a formula as Ft. lbs. will be.

The one caution that can be stated about the .58 is that being a bigger ball, its takes more powder and maybe even a longer barrel to get the same velocity you can get shooting a .54 RB. And, because the .58 RB is heavier, its pulled down by gravity faster than is the .54, so that you are not going to get as flat a trajectory shooting the .58 as you would the .54. However, the difference is measured in inches, NOT FEET, at 100 yds, and for the most part, most shooters can't hold much finer a sight picture at 100 yards, using open sights, than about 3 inches. Throw in the excitment and adrenalin from humping the boonies to get into position for a shot, and then take the shot off-hand and a 3 shot group capability off a bench rest on a calm day becomes a 10 inch group if you are lucky. Fortunately, most big game are shot at under 100 yards, and most hunters have the good sense( and ethics) to pass on shots that are beyond their capability. That moose has a 20 inch diameter heart/lung area kill zone on a broadside shot, so You don't have as much to worry about hitting and killing a moose as you would a smaller, whitetail deer at the same range.

Forget about high speed loads with that .58. Concentrate on working up a load that you can shoot accurately under a lot of variable conditions. That heavy ball will go through game like a freight train through a passenger car. I you don't believe me, just do penetration tests in whatever medium you are comfortable using. I made a test " box " of 1 inch pine boards spaced and Inch apart for my testing. I used some modern rifle cartridges to establish some comparative norms, and then shot target and " hunting " loads through my .50 caliber rifle. The first deer I shot was at about 40 yards, and my ball broke through a rib going in, passed through both lungs, and some major blood vessels above the heart, and broke another rib going out. That is a 175 grain RB compared to 260 gr. RB. The balls went through 6 inches of pine wood, and the 6 inches of air in between, stopping at the 7th board. The ball was a flattened, distorted piece of lead, hardly recognizeable as a round ball. The velocity of the ' target " load was about 1425 fps. and the velocity of the " hunting load " was about 1975 fops. Both balls penetrated the same amount of boards and air.

I would expect, from observing the damage done to m club's backstop by .58 caliber ROUND BALLS, that your round ball load, at any reasonable velocity, will completely penetrate a moose in a broadside shot. If you use, instead, a conical, you may be able to penetrate the length of the moose with your bullet on a frontal chest shot.
 
We just gotta stop trying to kill these critters with mathmatics, the normal firearm ballistic data/formulas/theories are really not a true guideline to what a PRB can do.I would use a .58 over the .54 if I had both only to alternate guns for a change.they will likely show little difference in killing an animal if placed in the right spot, and i would certainly not feel that I left the better gun at home if I took the .58 off the horns in the morning.
 
Greetings,
I dont know about a .58 but i have killed many moose with my .54 all were one shot kills at ranges of 60 yards or less.
I would not hesitate to use a .58 rifle if that is what i already had.
 
Tg: I guess we certainly agree about this. I tend to cringe anytime someone is talking about Black Powder and PRBs, and then mentions ft.lbs. of energy in the same breathe!!! Ft.lbs. has some value when discussion modern bullets, and smokeless powder loads, up through about the 33 calibers, but above that, even Ft. lbs. don't mean much, simply because the figure doesn't factor in the diameter or weight of the bullet in larger caliber guns. We don't need " Magnum " velocities with the larger calibers.

For years, I made plans to build a LH bolt action rifle in .338 Winchester magnum, Mannlicher, full stock, variable 1-4 power scope, muzzle brake, etc. to be my perfect bear and moose and caribou rifle. Then I began working with my Marlin 1895 .45-70 rifle, and loading some lighter weight, but faster bullets to give me a good trajectory out to 200 yards. I shot those loads out to 250 yards and hit my targets off-hand. Then, my knee said my dreams of climing mountains, and dense forests to hunt bear and moose were over. Then my back said that running or loping more than 100 yards was about all it was going to let me do. All the Data I had collected on the .338 cartridge, bullets, loading data--- all of it got put away. There is Nothing that walks this continent that I need a Magnum rifle to take. My hunting skills have bettered themselve over time, so shooting at game at long range is no longer something I dream of doing. I know I can hit targets at long distances. I don't need to prove it to myself, or others by shooting some living animal at a long distance, taking the chance that Murphy's Law is going to get involved and leave a crippled animal where a sure killing hit should have occurred. Murphy has been a frequent companion of mine.

Shooting a world record Elk, or Caribou, or moose, or Brown Bear never really pushed my buttons, and now I get so much satisfaction from getting close to game that I enjoy hunting squirrels as much as any big game. And I enjoy shooting black powder guns so much that most of my modern rifles sit in the gun room, unshot, and ignorred when I head out to a range. I would sell them, but the dollar is losing value, against other currencies, and the guns have seemed to keep their value as well as gold, so why not keep them? I do enjoy shooting them, but I don't have a " Gotta-have-one" on my radar screen anymore. That is depressing. I did see a new semi-auto shotgun that I would like to shoot-------- :grin: :thumbsup:
 
Opps, don't go against Newton's law. Both balls sent out of the barrels at the same speed, should impact the same time on the ground. Weight has nothing to do with it. :wink:
 
I've never killed anything larger than a whitetailed deer with my .58 but I've killed 30+ with it. I use 90 grs of ffg with a .570 prb, most were under 100yds, the longest 157 steps the ball entered the point of the shoulder, quartering towards me, and came to rest just under the hide on the opposite hip, pretty good penetration! the deer went maybe 30 yds and piled up. I'll take a .58 anyday.
Longball 58
 
With patched roundball bigger is definitely better. That's why they used massive 4 bores or larger on elephants and such.
Your .58 will do the job for sure on a moose, even a grizzly.
Put the ball in the boiler room with descent velocity and bullwinkle will lay down for you. A scapular shot on a bear should slow it down for a follow up, if needed. I'd carry a good backup for bear.

Good luck. I sure do miss Alaska. I'll be back someday!

HD
 
My first wife explained that bigger was better, I have sence learned that "shot placement" makes up for ALOT! :wink: All things being equal...Bigger is Gooder IF you can hit your target square :hatsoff:
 
David: In a vacuum, you are correct. Unfortunately, we have to deal with the affects of air on projectiles in the real world. The big bullets lose velocity faster, than smaller bullets, backwards of what happens with round balls. When they lose velocity, they fall faster. That is why the trajectory curves vary as you increase the weight of a bullet. The drag factors are much greater on the bigger bullets.
 
I think you and Davek are both right, just saying different things. Vacuum or not, if you drop a .54 and a .58 from 10 feet at the exact same time, they will hit the ground so close together that you would not be able to tell the difference. Mathematics says the .58 would hit first without a vacuum and they would both hit at the same time in a vacuum.

If you shoot them at the exact same time and at the exact same angle at the exact same velocity, they will still hit the ground at the same time. But, not at the exact same distance from the muzzle of the barrel(s). The .58 has a higher mass in relation to it's frontal surface and will lose velocity more slowly. It will be further from the firing line when it hits even though both will hit the ground at the same time.
 
Thanks for all the great response guys. I understand about the making velocitys equal part. It just seems to take alot of extra powder to get there and recoil.

Also as many know Im using a T/C Big boar wich only has a 24 inch barrel.
 
I think you're worrying too much about that 24" barrel...go shoot it and enjoy :wink:
 
your right roundball! I got into this muzzleloading hobby to get away from all the worry and controversy of centerfire.

I used to have complete ignorance of guns and ammo. Ahhh those were the days. the days before the internet...

I need to refrain from worrying about all the details of ballistics junk.

Muzzloading and Archery are my new ignorance is Bliss hobbies.

I bought a Bow from a buddy that I know has killed 2 moose and a Black Bear. I dont know what the draw weight is and I dont want to! I asked him what arrows to get also, and I bought 3 dozen!

I just practiced shooting that bow and worrying about accuracy. Nothing else. I love it. Its one shooting sport I have not blown out of proportion.


So if you guys say this .58 is enough, Ill just find a good accurate load and do some shooting!
 
As a bowhunter myself, you will do just fine with whatever cal. is legal. As you know, placement is the most important thing to be concerned with. You will do fine.
 
I have both a 54cal and a 58cal. I dont really shoot my 54cal anymore. The 58cal is awesome. I think it probably has more killing power.
 
I can't imaging a .54 being more of a killer than a .58 if loaded stiff.

I'm more likely to encounter squirrels and bunnies than elk and moose in between whitetail hunts so I use a .54 (good all around caliber).
 
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