.54 or .58?

[DEWB]

Hello all, I was wondering if you all had a preference for one or the other with a round ball on big game such as elk? I know that both will work just fine. I have one freind that uses a .54 and another that uses a .58. So do you all think that one is better than another? I'm sure this has been talked about before but I couldn't find anything on it when I searched. Dew

 

[John Wasmuth]

Both of them fun. I have one of each. I like the .58 better, but its an idividual thing.

 

[longcruise]

.54 is good and .58 better. A larger ball will always kill em deader! :wink:

 

[Dave K]

I would say it depends with the shooter. Both will take them right down if both sizes are placed where it counts. Both sizes will leave you on a long tracking day if you can't put it where it counts.

 

[roundball]

Really depends on what somebody plans to use one for, and the personal appeal of one more than the other.

I like them both, but just this year as I decided to start winding down the number of muzzleloaders looking ahead to retirement and decided to work towards ending up with a large caliber hunting rifle, a .20ga smoothbore for shot loads.
(and possibly a small caliber rifle in the future)

So for my circumstances, I settled on the .58cal as my single large caliber rifle because it has more "whompability" than a .54cal, and the .58 I had was so accurate it made me wonder if the .58 might just be one of those inherently accurate calibers.

There are probably dozens of circumstances that will lead to choosing one over the other

 

[rabjr]

Nothing against the .54, taken a few deer no problem with one And hope to on the future. But when I had my custom rifle built, I went with a .58 and I'm glad I did. But either will do the job as long as you do yours. :thumbsup:

 

[J.D.]

IMHO, bigger bores shoot more accurately and retain velocity better at longer ranges, so if you plan to shoot at long range, go bigger. Bigger bores shoot heavier charges at those long ranges too, so build or buy a rifle with a wide, flat buttplate to spread the recoil over a larger area.

If you plan to shoot at 100 yards or less, normal powder charges in a 58 or 60 will do enough damage to put an elk down for the count.

God bless

 

[Stumpkiller]

I use a .54 for 200# whitetail and figure if I ever get a chance it will serve for elk. If I was starting out for elk the .58 would be a great solution and probably my choice.

Never hurts to have a little edge.

 

[BrownBear]

I have to come off the wall and say that I'm happy to hear someone choosing between a 54 and 58, rather than the usual questions about a 50 or a 54! :applause:

I like them both (and 50's as well), but while 54's are fun and do a great job, 58 caliber just stole my heart away from the 54s. I know it's probably not fair, but that's the way love is. :rotf:

You'll have a harder time finding a 58 than a 54, unless you locate one on the used market or have one built (or build it yourself). Other than that, you won't notice a huge difference on game. I'd take a moose or an elk with either, and both will require good hits to get the job done.

 

[DEWB]

One of the reasons I am asking is because I am thinking about building A Hawken from a Don Stith kit. The .54 would weigh less than a .58 because of the barrel size and would be easier to carry up the mountain. I think the .54 would probably shoot flatter but the .58 would carry a little farther but I don't know if there is that much difference in the two. Anymore comments would be appreciated. Dew

 

[paulvallandigham]

Do you have experience shooting heavy caliber guns off your upper arm- required if you make a true Hawken rifle with the half moon butt plate???? I ask, because I prefer shooting heavy caliber guns off my shoulder, rather than my upper arm, and modify the traditional half-moon butt plate on my " hawken" to be a flatter, shotgun style butt-plate, "Plains rifle".

You don't say what outside diameter your barrel choice will be, but if you choose the same outside dimension for either a .54, or .58, the .58 will ACTUALLY BE LIGHTER to carry( and also produce heavier recoil for that reason!)compared to a .54 caliber gun, all other factors being the same.

If you are hunting Big Game, such as ELK, or MOOSE, or Caribou, or Bear, then go for the .58. If most of your hunting will be for whitetails, or mule deer, then choose the .54. A once in a lifetime hunt for Elk will easily fall to a .54. The Added "OOMPH" of the .58 is preferred for the larger bodied, or thicker skinned animals.

Consider both calibers 100 yd. guns, although they can kill much further. The limitations will be the open sights, and the hunting conditions that let you see all or only part of the animal you are shooting.

Accurate placement of the ball is what is going to make a successful hunt, not choice of caliber, or an extra pound or so between guns.

 

[BrownBear]

If it helps your thinking, I've got a GRRW 58 caliber Hawken with a 36" barrel tapered from 1 1/8" at the breech to 1" at the muzzle. Best shooting (and good looking) Hawken I've seen. But it weighs 12 pounds, and as you suspect it a bit of a tank to lug at the end of a long day. It absorbs heavier charges well and really locks in for offhand shooting though.

At the other end I've got a standard Lyman GPR capper in 54 caliber with it's 32" 15/16" barrel. It's probably not quite 8 pounds, though I haven't weighed it. I'm guessing it's a half pound or so lighter than my 50 caliber GPR.

I could go a little heavier than that GPR and still not feel overburdened at the end of a long day. Call it 9 pounds. I'm betting that a 1" 58 caliber barrel 32" long or so would come pretty close to that, maybe a little on the high side, but not much.

I've also got a couple of Big Boar 58 cals with their 27" long 1" barrels, plus a custom 58 with a 26" barrel tapered 1 1/8" to 15/16" at the muzzle. Interesting enough the Big Boars feel slightly barrel heavy, while the custom balances more like a shotgun with the weight right between your hands and no sense of being barrel heavy. The latter is dandy for fast shooting, but kinda requires extra attention for deliberate offhand work.

If I was going to define the "perfect" 58 caliber rifle it would be a "Hawken" with a 1" barrel around 32" long. I'm guessing that would land somewhere between 9 and 10 pounds in weight and provide the right barrel weight for serious offhand shooting. And yeah, Stith would be my source. Just the right mix of style, weight and balance for my needs and tastes.

 

[dyemaker]

A .54 will shoot slightly flatter than a .58 caliber. I imagine it would depend on hunting style if you would make that trade off or not. A .58 caliber (or bigger) for deer is not out of the question. The way I see it, more energy and bigger hole in animal means less tracking and quicker kill. I read that the adreneline is what causes some bad taste in the meat. Maybe a transitional type longrifle like the Chamber's Edward Marshall rifle... etc. would work out well.
Just a thought. :hmm:

 

[doulos]

I have a .58 S Hawken from a Stith kit. It weighs 11 pounds and has to be shot off the upper arm Like Paul was mentioning. Especially with loads in the 100 grain or more area. It takes a while to get used to but is not hard to learn. I had to find the spot on my arm where I was comfortable. It was lower than I thought. Once you find the right spot you can shoot heavy charges comfortably. Off hand i can manage 100 grains from the shoulder but not alot of shots. The gun is hard to shoot off the bench unless the bench and rest is high enough for you to sit very erect. The barrel is 34 inches 1 1/8 at the breech and tapered so it hangs well off hand.
On the other hand in .54 cal I have a Pedersoli Hawken with a .34 inch 1 inch in diameter barrel thats a 1.25 lbs lighter and is very comfortable to shoot off the shoulder even with 110 grains of powder. the butt plate is a little wider and longer. Its not as authentic as a Stith for sure.
But it shoots very well

Im starting to believe that if you want to shoot large charges in a .58 off the shoulder a Hawken buttplate isnt for you. In the .58 Stith Im more comfortable off the arm.

 

[DEWB]

Thanks for all the replies. I have always liked the GRRW hawkens although I have never seen or shot one. I was kind of wanting something authentic so thats why I thought about Stith's kits. I already have 2 .54's so I wouldn't mind getting a .58. And I know that shot placement is the top main thing,I have been shooting traditional black powder for about 20 years. I was mainly wondering how much flatter a .54 was than a .58 and if the extra power of a .58 would be worth the extra weight. When I talked to Don he said his kits had tapered barrels,I could get a .58 with a 1 1/8 tapered to 1" or a .54 in a 1" tapered to 7/8". Just trying to figure out if I want to go this route or not. Dew

 

[BrownBear]

Funny how our minds wander down similar paths. One thing to add to your thinking. I'd sure plan on building with a bit of cast-off in the stock. My GRRW has it, and for my shooting it just naturally puts the butt in just the right place, no thought required.

Depending on your age, I'd also think about mounting that rear sight a fair bit further forward than "normal," just to allow for changes in your eyes when you pass the magic five-oh. Might as well do it as a matter of course on a new build, rather than have to figure out how to do it neatly later on.

And here's a look at my experiences with 54's and 58's. I've put exactly one range session through either of my two 54's since buying the first 58. And since getting the first 58, I've picked up three more. With them in the house, I just never get around to either 54 any more. They're great guns, but they're not holding my attention at all.

 

[DEWB]

Brown Bear, Thanks for your input. I was thinking a .58 to begin with but when you start thinking about these things and all the options and what ifs, before you know it you have changed your mind a dozen times. But I think a .58 it will be! Don told me that his stocks have cast off in them and he said once you shoot one with it you won't want one without it. Said he can get a .58 barrel 1 1/8 tapered 33" long so that might cut a few oz. off it. Think that what I'll go for if I do this. Dew

 

[Vaino]

Two years ago I built a Stith "S.Hawken" in .54 cal. for an elk hunter and he really likes the weight and balance. The bbl is tapered from 1" @ the breech to 7/8" @ the muzzle and is 37" long including the hooked breech. His load is 110 grs 2f w/ a PRB and the accuracy is excellent. The radically curved buttplate has been modified somewhat but still requires an upper arm mount and is not pleasant to shoot from the bench.A very authentic looking "Hawken". Built a Pecatonica "Hawken" in .54 cal. for my son and the bbl is 1" straight by 33" long including the hooked breech but it doesn't have the reduced weight and excellent balance of the Stith. The buttplate isn't as curved and is comfortable to shoot from the shoulder and is also comfortable from the bench. It looks like a "Hawken" except for the buttplate, so I guess it's a trade off....authentic "Hawken" look w/ the radically curved BP, or the Pecatonica w/ a flatter, non- Hawken looking BP. My choice...the Pecatonica because it can be shot from the shoulder. By the way...both have taken elk....Fred

 

[J.D.]

Not all Hawkens had the deeply hooked buttplate. A few were made with shotgun butts, but they won't sell today, because they don't look "Hawkenish".

Here is an early one illustrated on the Cody firearms museum page, made with a somewhat straighter buttplate;
http://www.bbhc.org/collections/BB...ect_key=32976&img=canon1d2005/1997.4.14v1.jpg

IMHO, Hawkens were hand made rifles, made to a pattern by various shop workers, . They were each very unique rifles, made for a unique clientele.

IMHO, if someone wanted a Hawken rifle with a straighter buttplate, who is to say the one would not have been made.

As to weight, a 60 cal rifle would weigh a bit less than a 58 in the same barrel diameter and length. The 60 will also throw a larger ball with more authority than the 58. Also, a barrel with more taper will weigh less and still be safe to shoot, with heavy charges.

Just kinda thinkin'...typin' out loud, so to speak...type.

God bless,
J.D.

 

[LaBonte]

It weighs 11 pounds and has to be shot off the upper arm Like Paul was mentioning. Especially with loads in the 100 grain or more area. It takes a while to get used to but is not hard to learn. I had to find the spot on my arm where I was comfortable. It was lower than I thought. Once you find the right spot you can shoot heavy charges comfortably

The "trick" to shooting off your upper arm is to lift your elbow until it is as high or slightly higher than your shoulder - look at the old late 19th and early 20th Century marksmanship manuals and you can see this is what was taught. By lifting the elbow you setup a pocket for the buttplate.
FWIW - I've regularly shot a 54 rifle (9.5 lbs) with hooked buttplate and 100+ grain charges under a 210 grn ball. I also shoot my 7 lb 62 caliber with 90-110 grains and a 340 grain ball from the same spot - it does have a flat buttplate but I shoot all guns from the same spot since it's easier to "remember" when mounting my guns than going back and forth...IMO "perceived" recoil is very subjective subject and has to do with stock design, etc. - for some folks recoil just bothers them while for others it's just there. Still no matter what the heavier a rifle is the less it recoils.

As to 58 or 54??? if you've got 54's than give the 58 a shot, but IMO for NA American game outside the big bears a 54 will do it all with less powder and a lighter ball so in the long run chweaper to shoot - there's a good reason that the 54 was one of the most if not the most widely calibers used in times past - even the trade guns mostly used a 54 ball although built in 58 caliber