The BP that comes w/ the Pecatonica "Hawken" is much less curved than the one pictured. You seem to know quite a bit about Hawken rifles, so....is there any predominant caliber? Having used a .54 PRB on elk, I don't see the need for anything larger but again it's a subjective choice.....Fred
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.54 or .58?
- Thread starter DEWB
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Not JD but been studying them for close to 50 years and the most common claiber of those Mountain rifles made by them still around is 53-54...and like you Fred having taken 15 elk and beaucoup big mule deer with a 54 I'm just plum happy with it's balance of cost effectiveness, reasonable recoil, rifle weight, and "killing ability".
Talked to Don about the buttplate and he said pretty much what you said. Stick your elbow straight out and the curve will fit your arm about were your armpit is. I know that there is alot of difference in buttplates. Seems like the early rifles like the Penn. rifles had flatter buttplates and the later rifles were more curved and I always wondered what the reason was for the change over time. I was going to go with a J&S Hawken but Don thought I would be happier with a Sam Hawken because the buttplate is a little wider. I know the .54 is a great round but I still think I'll stick with the .58 jus cuz. Dew
Herb
54 Cal.
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Dyemaker, you said a .54 will shoot "slightly flatter than a .58". Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual, 2nd Edition", lists a maximum load of 120 grains of Goex 2F and a .535 round ball at 1803 fps, with 610 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards.
With a .58 caliber, maximum load is 140 grains of Goex 2F at 1773 fps, and 740 fpe at 100 yards.
Referring to the 1st edition of the Lyman Handbook for external ballistics, at 1800 fps, a .535 roundball (Ballistic Coefficient of .075) retains 895 fps and 409 fpe at 150 yards. From a 50 yard zero, it drops 15.39 inches at 150 yards. Their .562 roundball (BC .079) at 1800 fps retains 913 fps and 495 fpe at 150 yards and drops 14.83 inches from a 50 yard zero. (A .570 ball has a BC of .080, of very slight increased significance).
So there is little difference in retained energy or trajectory between .54 and .570 roundballs at the same velocity. Whether there is any importance in lethality to a slightly larger ball, your guess is as good as mine.
With a .58 caliber, maximum load is 140 grains of Goex 2F at 1773 fps, and 740 fpe at 100 yards.
Referring to the 1st edition of the Lyman Handbook for external ballistics, at 1800 fps, a .535 roundball (Ballistic Coefficient of .075) retains 895 fps and 409 fpe at 150 yards. From a 50 yard zero, it drops 15.39 inches at 150 yards. Their .562 roundball (BC .079) at 1800 fps retains 913 fps and 495 fpe at 150 yards and drops 14.83 inches from a 50 yard zero. (A .570 ball has a BC of .080, of very slight increased significance).
So there is little difference in retained energy or trajectory between .54 and .570 roundballs at the same velocity. Whether there is any importance in lethality to a slightly larger ball, your guess is as good as mine.
flehto said:
I don't claim to be an expert on Hawken rifles, however, I do agree with LaBonte that the most common calibers seem to be 52-54 range. The calibers in that range seem to shoot flatter, with less powder than larger bores, so it would be simple common sense for that range of calibers to be so common in mountain rifles.
I have shot the 54, as a rifle caliber, almost exclusively for nearly 35 years, and it has proven itself to be consistently accurate and powerful.
Lately, I have become interested in larger bores after seeing the raw killing power of the .715 ball, fired in a bess.
IMHO, the 54 will do about anything anyone wants, within it's capabilities, but for those of us who are forced, by circumstances, to hunt on smaller tracts of land, larger bores seem to put 'em down faster.
Just kinda thinkin'...typin' out loud, so to speak...type.
God bless
longcruise
70 Cal.
Yes, when they are compared at identical velocities, the trajectory is very similar all the way out to 200 yards with less than an inche difference when zeried at 150 yards. The FPE favors the .58, but as we all know it's not the fpe of a ball that kills. I like the Taylor Knock Out value for computing round balls killing power.
Using the TKO and 1700 fps for both balls, the 100 yard TKO values are: .54 cal = 16.92 and the .58 cal = 23.56.
Using the TKO and 1700 fps for both balls, the 100 yard TKO values are: .54 cal = 16.92 and the .58 cal = 23.56.
IMO, the .54 is a darn good caliber.
But after several years of .45/.50/.54cals, when I started shooting the .58cal, one thought immediately came to mind:
"Whompability"
There are charts and graphs and formulas...but no lesser muzzleloader I've ever owned, shot, and deer hunted with before has left me with the feeling of 'whompability' like the .58cal has...it's a powerhouse.
But after several years of .45/.50/.54cals, when I started shooting the .58cal, one thought immediately came to mind:
"Whompability"
There are charts and graphs and formulas...but no lesser muzzleloader I've ever owned, shot, and deer hunted with before has left me with the feeling of 'whompability' like the .58cal has...it's a powerhouse.
longcruise
70 Cal.
I have to agree and even though I have considered my .54's to be "thee" big game gun for the Rockies for quite a few years, I would feel even better with a .58. Bigger balls are always better! :redface:
Just thought I'd let Y'all know that I ordered a Don Stith Hawken kit in .58. Getting a 33" De Haas barrel with a 1-60" twist. I ought to be getting it within a couple weeks and hopefully I'll get it done before next season when I'll try the draw again. And hopefully get a tag. Thanks for all the input. Dew
longcruise
70 Cal.
Looking forward to seeing some pics. Those Stith Hawkens are fine looking rifles!
I ordered the Sam Hawken half stock with the 1 1/8" tapered to 1". I also got the trigger guard that usually comes with the early Hawken. Its got a bigger bow in it and would be good for cold weather when you are wearing gloves. Don said it would still be correct for the Sam Hawken.
Built the lefty version of that same rifle for a customer and he uses it for elk. Is Don breeching the bbl because it needs to be done and how are you attaching the under rib? Yes...that trigger guard is nicer than the stock one and if I had to do it over again, that's the one I'd go with. You'll enjoy this build and good luck....Fred
Yea,Don is going to breech it for me. I am going to have a freind of mine help me with the under rib cause I havn't ever done one but he has.He also has a table top mill so that makes me a little less nervous about drilling the blind holes. Havn't ever built a half stock before and that is one of the reasons I wanted a hawken. And if your gonna get one you might as well get the best you can afford. I wanted it to be as authentic as possible so I went with the Stith kit.
I go with .58, it's nice to know you can punch through a shoulder blade and still have the ball penetrate the vitals. My current bear rifle is a .58 virginia rifle, using 100gr. of 3f and a hardened ball (1600fps). It is a penetrating load and will penetrate poplar logs I use as a back stop that my .300 mag wouldn't penetrate. The recoil is not bad either. The fact is either would work fine but you might as well give yourself an edge.
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