.54 -vs-45-70gov?

[Huntnut]

I was sitting her thinking. This can be scary LOL. If a 45-70gov is 45 cal with 70gr bp and a 405gr bullet wouldn't a .54 with say 90gr BP and say 425gr plains bullet have more knock down power then the 45-70? And wouldn't with a say .45sabot 400grbullet and 70gr powder have the same ballistics as the 45-70gov?

Now my mind is smoking so someone else can figure this out.

 

[Mountainman56]

Yes

 

[silverfox]

I'll say NO. No proof but I would think with the sealed breach on the 45-70 you would get more pressure and higher velosity.
It may not be much but it should be there. Think Flintlock and the vent with the pressure lose and the same should happen with a cap and nipple but on a smaller scale.
Good question now that .54 might hit harder than the 45-70 due to size of slug.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[Bountyhunter]

I'd say that if you were to run about 90 gr under that slug, that you'd be equal to or greater than the .45-70. You will have a smidgeon of leak from the nipple.

I'm from north of Hays, where are you from?

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've always figured a 10% loss for the vent on a flintlock, so a nipple maybe 5 to 8% drop in pressure to that opening. It would be easy to test with the proper pressure equipment and I'm sure it has been done somewhere in the past.

A traditional muzzleloader works on something like 8,000 or 10,000 ppsi (or was that c.u.p.? - copper units of pressure in a squeeze plug). A breechloader 45-70 runs 28,000 cup as the industry standard for the cartridge according to my olf RCBS reloading guide. A .444 Marlin is up around 35,000 cup and probably the sin-lines are headed that high.

You can tell much easier if you're getting .45-70 performance by clocking the bullet with a chronograph. If you know the bullet's weight, and the speed is up there with the .45-70, then good old Issac Newton says the performance is there. I don't have a chronograph or conicals so I can't help you there. My two .54s get fed round balls.

 

[jdstrang]

I've made a lifetime policy of avoiding math in any of its forms (except powder charges and bullet grain weights), so I'm not about to crunch the numbers. :surrender:

But velocities for many black-powder loads are right there in the back of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. And, as the man said, if you have the velocity and the bullet weight, you can calculate foot-pounds. Or so I am told. :redface:

 

[BrownBear]

I've killed game with both, and velocities are comparable. The 45-70 penetrates better due to higher sectional densities and generally harder alloys. For comparable SD, the 54 cal conical would have to be WAY heavier.

As for knockdown power, I never have figgered that stuff out. It's a job for mathematicians and keyboard hunters. I just know that they both have killed whatever I shot with them, so that tells me both are goodnuff.

 

[DBox]

You know that here in Mississippi you can hunt with a 45-70 during "Primitive" weapons season as long as it is single shot with an exposed hammer. This has sold a lot of the NEF break open rifles. This, along with inlines with scopes, makes me ask, What is primitive?

 

[Birddog6]

After the bullet leaves the barrel, 4 things come into it.
1: Velosity.
2: Bullet weight.
3: Bullet shape or design.
4: Bullet hardness.

Unless you consider these factors & compare them, then you cannot make a accurate comparison. What happens inside the barrel, chamber, casing, vent, etc., none of that really matters. What matters is the velosity when it leaves the barrel & the velocity of the bullet at ? 100 yards or whatever the distance you picked for the impact. Then the other 3 factors.

:thumbsup:

 

[Blacky Montana]

Hey guys,
In my home state of Delaware, we are allowed ML's, shotguns, handguns, bows, and with the permits crossbows for deer. ML's can be traditional or inline, and scope use is allowed. The one exception, is a .45-70 can be used during firearm season, but only as a Paper Patch. Aside from my Hawkens, my favorite of my hunting rifles is my beloved Marlin 1895 .45-70. I have often argued the point, that if new modern in-lines with their 150 grain magnum loads pushing sabots are allowed, why don't they let us use .45-70 cartridge as well. Owning both, I personally don't see where there is a big difference in performance between the two. At least, not if the .45-70 is kept to factory loads. It is true that companies like Garrett load the .45-70 to equal the big .458 Winchester Mag, but these loads can only be used in specific modern firearms...the Marlin being one of them. Like many of the others here, I do not know all of the proper math to compare the .45-70 to the .54 BP. But from hunting with both, I would say that we can deffinately get factory .45-70 performance from our ML's.... Just my two cents....lol.

Blacky Montana
SASS #19953

P.S.. Just as a side note for anyone interested, I bought some of the Garrett dangerous game loads for use on Alaskan brown bear in thick cover. DO NOT fire these loads without a VERY WELL constructed recoil pad. These rounds are devastating. To say recoil is stout is a understatement.....lol

 

[MSW]

a sea of ink will yet be spent on the notion of 'knockdown power.' ... see inter alia the vast volume spent by writers of gun mags and other 'hairy chested' publication, all of which pontificate on the relative merits of thier favorite handgun (usually the .45ACP v. 9mm para) and the manifest inadequacies of the one which they don't find worth a bucket of warm spit.

the point?

go with what works. Guns not Grammar!

(there, that's my tirade for the day).

msw

 

[Nifeman]

Y'all are right, BUT, dead is dead all the same :hmm: :grin: ...Bud

 

[Huntnut]

Thanks for the help guys. I was just board and I was thinking out load.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Question #1 knock down energy?
on paper, The 54 with 90 gr and a 425 gr bullet has the edge at the the muzzle. At 100 yards the 45-70 has the edge but not by a great deal like 94 foot pounds of energy. Not a great deal, but if both guns were shooting soft lead and BP I would give the nod to the 45-70 because of the shape of the bullet and the potential for penetration.
Question #2 would the 400 gr gagbot and the 45-70 be the same? If the bullet was the same bullet and the launch speed was the same? Yes they would be the same. Ron

I was sitting her thinking. This can be scary LOL. If a 45-70gov is 45 cal with 70gr bp and a 405gr bullet wouldn't a .54 with say 90gr BP and say 425gr plains bullet have more knock down power then the 45-70? And wouldn't with a say .45sabot 400grbullet and 70gr powder have the same ballistics as the 45-70gov?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Brown Bear: One of the easier formulas for determining relative KILLING POWER is:

KP = Velocity( down-range)x bullet weight x caliber, divided by 100.

YOu can use the same formula using Muzzle Velocities, just as long as you are consistent. Remember that the number given is JUST a number. Its value only has meaning when compared to another caliber, bullet weight and velocity.

For example: a .50 cal. RB weights 175 grains M/L. Muzzle velocity with 90 grains of FFg is 1872.

.50 x 1872 x 175 divided by 100 = 1638.

A .54 Cal. RB weights 230 grains,m/l, Muzzle velocity using 110 grains of FFg is 1854.

.54 x 1854 x 230 divided by 100 = 2303.

If you can get actually velocities for .50 yards or 100 yards, these two numbers would be expected to be lower, but probably will stay fairly close in their relationship to each other.

A .45-70 is a .458 diameter bullet, weighing 405 grains, and leaves the muzzle at about 1200 fps.with most factory ammo.

.458 x 1200 x 404 divided by 100 = 2226.

Increase that velocity to a brutal 1,500 fps, and the number goes up to 2782!
Use a .458 cal. 300 gr. bullet at 2,000 fps and the number goes to 2748. ( A DECREASE in KP)

I once fired some " rhino rollers " in my Marlin .45-70 that were 350 grain bullets at 1900 fps. The number on that goes UP to 3045! They shot very flat out to a 250 yard bangplate, but I would not want to have to shoot them sitting down at a benchrest.

I use these examples just to show how varying any of the numbers in the KP formula changes the resulting "KP-Number ". Only when you compare the KP number of a known caliber and bullet at a given velocity that you know does the job on the game you are hunting, can you make any " bench mark" for your purposes of comparative analysis.

And this is about as much math as I want to put my head around, Too! :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[PanzerOfJustice]

There is no such thing as "killing power." That is completely made up and I got a good laugh out of it.

What is important is tissue displacement, which is only found out by testing.

If you must compare the "power" of a bullet, then you are talking about the Kinetic energy, which is KE = mass * velocity^2.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yes. And there is no such thing as "knock down power". If you're lucky you shock the animal's nervous system so that it collapses.

Have you seen the latest add showing an outline of a deer pressed into the dirt and leaves as if it was run down with a steam roller? Nuh uh. Can't happen. Hit it that hard and the ball/bullet passes through and may impart a lot of energy to tissue but the animal still falls down. It is not knocked off it's feet. It hits the animal with the same force the firearm hits your shoulder - just concentrated in a smaller area.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Did you actually read the post before making a comment, " Panzer of justice ", or were you just in too much of a hurry to prove how smart you are by giving us your Kinetic Energy formula?

There is no such thing as " Knock Down Power", as Stumpy has explained. Your Kinetic Energy Formula actually proves that.

The " Killing Power " formula I presented is just an arbitrary look at what bullets and round ball can do. The number generated is for COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS , only! It means nothing in its self. I believe I made that fact quite clear.

Only by comparing a " KP" number to that of a gun, bullet, and caliber that you know will actually kill a deer can you have any idea of what you might expect to see in actual performance with that other ball or bullet.

I also made it quite clear that this has nothing to do with " Knock Down " power. A car knocks a deer down because it has greater mass than the deer when the two collide. Bullets don't have greater mass, and don't knock deer down. They pass into and through the deer, and the deer falls down when it loses enough blood, or Its central nervous system shuts down for some other reason.

 

[4440]

Prior to a Colorado elk hunt last fall, I developed a load for my 54 Renegade with a 405 grain maxi ball. I chronographed 110 grains of 2F with the 405 grain bullet at 1325fps. I think this is similar to the old 45-70 load and the velocity I usually get in my Marlin 1895 with 38.5 grains of IMR 3031. Of course the 45-70 can be loaded way beyond this,even in the Marlin. If memory serves me, I believe the best I've done with 70 grains of 2F in the 45-70 is about 1200 fps with a 405 grain (RCBS) cast bullet.

 

[faw3]

paulvallandigham I think ya explained it all to them but one thing...not all 45/70's are the same -just the wimp 405's grs. If I rememeber "about right" the Army or others came up with a unch of loads for this old war horse (back in the good old days cav guys with nothing to do (killed off all the NDNas they could find) would see who could shoot the farthest ( I think 4 to 500 yards for the 405, you had to add weight to that bullet to get it to reach out and do something,I think hey even made a guard duty shell with 4 44s in it or maybe 45s ( it's been to many years to remember sorry. My 2 cents. Fred :hatsoff: