.58 cal Load question

[dan101955]

I have a 58 call 1863 Springfield reproduction BP rifle. Want to know if 118 gr. Schutzen 3fg. With a minie ball is a OK starting load?

 

[BrownBear]

Waaaay over I'd bet, if you're talking minies, and probably with round balls too, unless your patch/ball combo is REALLY tight in light of the shallow rifling.

Most minies are "optimized" for best performance down around 60 grains of 2f, and going over 80 grains certainly blows the skirts. I'd sure get hold of the Lyman Black Powder manual talking about shooting minies.

 

[Zonie]

The Lyman "BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL" starting powder charge for the tests they did with a Minie' bullet is 60 grains and it goes from there up to 140 grains.
They don't say what type of barrel they used other than to give the length (24" and 32") and the rate of twist (1:48).

The twist rate tells me they were probably using a heavy octagon barrel as, in my opinion, powder charges in a rifled musket barrel over 120 grains is treading on very thin ice (rifled musket barrels are much thinner than a heavy octagon barrel).

Also to be remembered, Lyman was looking for velocity's and breech pressures when they did their tests and published their findings.

They didn't give a hoot if it shot accuratly as long as it would pass thru their 100 yard chronometer.

Anyway, as you say, 60 grains is about right for shooting a Minie' bullet.
Powder loads above 80 grains will often blow the thin skirt at the back of the bullet as the slug leaves the barrel.

As for wanting to use a 118 or 120 grains of powder with a heavy slug I question the need.

These big heavy slugs can be thought of as a freight train.
They might not move very fast but whatever they hit is going to be in deep doo-doo.

Rather than worry about getting high velocities (which won't happen even with a 140 grain powder load) the shooter should try to get the most accurate load.

With accuracy, that big slug will take down about anything that walks in North America.

 

[dan101955]

I have only used this rifled musket for rent enacting but now want to use it for target and hunting.
What would be a good starting load and round ball of minnie?

 

[old gunsmith]

If you have an exact repro of a Springfield then you have a 1-72" twist. That twist by reputation does not stabilize a ball or a bullet very well and lower powder charges can be more accurate than the service load of 60 grains. I've owned a number of rifle muskets over the years and found the most accurate load to be in the 50 grains of 3fg range with a modern thin skirt Minnie or a round ball. The thick skirt Minnie's, what Lyman used to call "old style", were a better choice in the 60-65 grain range of 2f, as I suppose the bases were more resistant to excessive deformation. At one point I tried adding tin to the pure lead to see if by hardening the lead I could drive the bullet faster but that did not work as the accuracy fell off badly after 70 grains. As has already been stated, the .58 Minnie is devastating bullet, way out of proportion to what the ballistic tables might suggest, and certainly more that adequate for deer sized game at reasonable hunting ranges, but perhaps there are better choices for hunting rifles out there than a rifle musket. OG

 

[varsity07840]

Aside from the long barrel, which can be a bit awkward in a tree stand, the biggest drawback is the sights. Issue sights are not adjustable for windage and are usually set to shoot high at "normal"
hunting ranges for a black powder rifle. I've hunted with a number of muskets over the years and have spent a considerable amount of time with each one getting the sights the way I wanted them. Fortunately, I enjoy fooling around with them.

 

[dan101955]

I will be using it for target shooting. I have a T C hawken for hunting and target and a traditions sporter for hunting and target.
Dan

 

[Tom Compton]

It has different rifling but my P-H (Birmingham) 2 band works well w 40 gr FFg Goex and a 550 gr minie to 100 yards. Don't be magnumized and think u have to start w a full blown powder charge. And remember equal and opposite reaction.

 

[nwtradegun]

you must be hunting mastadones.

 

[Erzulis boat]

Heaviest charge that I have used was 90 grains, and it added nothing to the mix. If I remember correctly, my new "max" was something like 70 grains. This is for 2F

I would start with 40ish-

 

[dan101955]

ROFL.... :rotf:

 

[TFoley]

Let's just slow thing down a minute, here, with regard to cosmic thunder-blasting star-warping loads.

The British and French went to a serious war with a service load of 2.5 drams of fine rifle powder and a 535gr Minié. That, Friends is 'only' just over 68gr, and served the Allies very well in the Crimea, where they slaughtered the Russian artillery crews at ranges of up to 800 yards on a daily basis.

A slighter lesser load was used in the .58 Springfield arm chosen by both sides of the WoNA.

We are not trying to warp the very fabric of space here, just shoot a sizeable lump of lead at an effective range.

tac

 

[1-12 Infantry]

The most accurate load in my .58 Amoskeag Special Contract 1862 is 45 grains. You're burning an awful lot of powder...

 

[SgtMaj65]

Just had my Euroarms .58 cal. 1853 Pattern British Enfield out at the range for the first time after 30 years as a CW re-enacting only rifle, and started with a thin skirt minie with 60 grains FFg Goex and hit an inch from center cut on first shot at 50 yards. Upped powder on next shot to 80 grains and didn't even hit paper. Went back down to 65 grains and hit an inch from center on other side. Very small sample, but very telling for me.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have never used a CW musket of any kind. But I was curious about all the various gems of advice being given here. I dug out my autographed copy of SHOOTING AND WINNING WITH THE CHAMPIONS by Don Davis. A great reference book from the best shooters of the time, mid-1970s. The musket section was written by Bob Butcher but his advised loads raise more questions than they answer.
e.g. for under 200 yard matches with patched round balls his charges range from 50 to 80 gr. of real bp, various brands and granulations. For 200 yard matches he uses the OS minie with charges of 60 or 70 gr real bp. Oddly, he also had good results with an after market Numrich barrel on is musket/rifle using only 40 gr. of 'F' (single as in 1F) grade real bp. pushing an OS minie. Go figger. :idunno: Methinks most of the results boil down to who is doing the shooting.

 

[BrownBear]

Methinks most of the results boil down to who is doing the shooting.

That, blended with the details of the specific gun.

Lotta guys feel it's important to be Leader of the Pack or something more like The Expert to End all Experts, so they're going to push their solution at anyone stupid enough not to follow along.

But they overlook the fact that each gun has its own voice and will be the final arbiter in what works best. If a combo works great for you, fine. Go in peace my son. But dollars to donuts it's not a universal solution for all guns and all uses.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have never used a CW musket of any kind.

Wat wuz I thimking?
For the truthful record: I have owned and fired a CW musket. It was an Austrian built experimental piece in .72" caliber. Not a pretty thing but shot. My comment referred to the rifled muskets normally associated with the CW. :redface:

 

[1-12 Infantry]

To clarify, I'm shooting 45g (by weight) of FFG, and a Rapine thin skirted Minie.

 

[ZUG]

OK - dan101955 I have a 1863 Euro-Arms Zouave I purchased in 1998 and I was buying my Minies from a store who bought them from a local caster. They were the Lyman thin skirt style and I shot them with 60 gr of 2F Goex. I got 4 to 6 inch groups @ 50 yds. I backed down the powder charge to 50 gr and reduced my groups to 3 to 4 inch groups at 50 yds - good enough for me. I then purchased a Lyman thick skirt mold and cast my own. I again shot them with 60 gr of 2F Goex. I got 2 to 3 inch groups @ 50 yds. I backed down the powder charge to 50 gr and reduced my groups to 1.5 to 3 inch groups at 50 yds. I did not try them at any distance farther than 50 yds as my eyesight is not that good to make any meaningful assessment at farther distances. Bottom line is that you have to find the "sweet spot" for YOUR rifle. The bore on these rifles are not all the same. :v