.58 cal musket

[bbuck]

I have a question I have a Euro Arms Zouve and a 1863 Springfield (Dixie gunworks) neither one will shoot minnie ball weather its .575 or .577 british or .578 I've greased them filled them with grease. Used wax and grease combo,used spit, wonder lubes, ever thing. And the #$%^&^%$ things will not hole a group.

Now when I shoot at the terirorrials or State I shoot round Ball and Pillow ticking. so I know the guns shoot accuratly. I was just wondering If I'm doing something wrong with these #$^^#@! Minnie"s

Maybe I'm not holding m y tounge right when I shoot???? :redface:

 

[silverfox]

8 Point: I can't help but the questions that need to be answered first are? How much powder are you useing with the minies? Are they keyholeing the target? Too much powder will blow the skirts and cause accuracy to go South and too little powder will not expand the skirt into the rifling and cause keyholeing and accuracy to be non existance.
Zouves I know about have been very touchey with minies but did shoot well with patched ball. Just keep trying. The Springfields all seem to handle minies well but I was told by a good shooter they can be tempermental from day to day.
Hope someone else can give you some good information on this subject. Good luck and stick with it.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

8 Point,
IMHO both of those rifles have a very slow twist, about 72" or even worse. They shoot roundball OK because they have a roundball twist, not nearly fast enough to stabalize any sort of conical bullet. The '58 Enfields had a 1-48 twist still slow but much better and they were the only CW rifle to shoot minies worth a damn. Even Enfields need very carefully cast, weighed, and sorted bullets if you expect any sort of group, and that is sure not what they were given during Mr. Lincoln's war where bullets were cast way undersize to facilitate loading down a rifle too foul to hit anything anyway.. :imo:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The Dixie 1863 rifle-musket has a 1 in 64" twist and should stablise Minies just fine. A .575 minie over 60 grains of ffg should be a good load. It is best to avoid the light Minies and use at least a 500 grain bullet as they, in my experience, stabilise better. The same load should work in the Zouave, too. Lubing the grooves is definitely a good idea. For starters, just fill the grooves with lube, not the base. See how that works. Some folks fill the base, too. I've never done that and don't see a need to. If you change things, change one thing at a time. These guns will shoot very well once you find out what they like.

 

[musketman]

I was just wondering If I'm doing something wrong with these #$^^#@! Minnie"s

It could be the Minie's themselves and not you...

Look at the skirts of the minie ball, (I know, minie skirts ) it should be free of imperfections... (dings, dents, missing lead or too thick also)

This is the most critical part of the minie ball, if damaged, it will not shoot right no matter what gun fires it...

If the skirt is too thick, it will not blow open enough to seal the bore and accuracy goes out the window, if it is dented, when the bullet leaves the muzzle it will cock off center, yaw will develop and again, good-bye to accuracy...

Another problem with minie balls is too heavy of a charge, this will bell the base (skirt) of the minie as it leaves the barrel from the powder blast and bullet performance will also suffer down range...

I lube my minie balls with a mixture of alox and wonder lube, I do not fill the hollow base with lube...

 

[mewing6003]

I have a Euroarms 1861 springfield. Shoots one ragged hole at 50 yards and 3-4 inch groups at 100 (five shot groups) if I do my part.

Lighter loads are better with minies. I shoot 44 grains of FFFG with a cast minie (rapine mould #577510.) I think the first thing you might want to look at is to mike your barell and see exactly what you have. Minies are finickey and one ten thousand of an inch will make a big difference, blown skirts, skirt not expanding, keyholing, etc.

:imo: :results:

 

8 Point, I had the same trouble with my old Italean '61 Springfield (keyholed, shots went throught he paper sideways, VERY frustrating) and come to find out it required a .580 minie which I found a mould for at Dixie. Measure your bore well and you may be surprised. Good luck.

 

[horkeye]

Maybe I'm not holding my tounge right when I shoot????

8 point,

1 - Tongue holding position needs to be precise when shooting minies :crackup:.

2 - All of the above replies are good.

3 - You may also consider your lead; for minies you want PURE lead. Try getting some from a foundry; the stuff I buy is stamped 99.9777% pure lead.
:imo:
Jim.
:redthumb:

 

[Trot]

As Johnny Reb and J James have said, you have to know what your bore size is, then you need a minie that is no more than .002 under your bore size. There is nothing wrong with the twist in these rifle muskets. The originals were excellent shooters. While the repros do not have the same quality rifling as the originals, with the right minie and the right powder charge they will do well.

 

[RussB]

I have a Euroarms 1861 springfield. Shoots one ragged hole at 50 yards and 3-4 inch groups at 100 (five shot groups) if I do my part.

Lighter loads are better with minies. I shoot 44 grains of FFFG with a cast minie (rapine mould #577510.) I think the first thing you might want to look at is to mike your barell and see exactly what you have. Minies are finickey and one ten thousand of an inch will make a big difference, blown skirts, skirt not expanding, keyholing, etc. :imo: :results:

Johnny Reb has nailed it smack dab in the middle, when it comes to accuracy with a minie, and a slow twist.

The 1861 Colt is a notoriously "Bad Shooter" when it comes to minies. The 1:72 is extrememly finicky with anything other than a Roundball & tic patch....if it is anything, it is a good rb shooter.

However, a relative "thin" skirt, and reduced charge with FFFg seems to work wonders with minies when it comes to accuracy. A few shooters of the .58 Musket with minies will go as low as 32 / 35 grs. when shooting stationary Clay targets at 75 yds.....ever notice how hard they are to even see!

This is not what I consider a hunting load, by any means. IMHO, a hunting load needs a "thick" skirt, and lots of powder.....getting a good hunting load with a minie in a 1:72, takes a lot of experimenting...but it can certainly be done.

I have found, for the most part, the heavier the minie, the better the group. I think it has a lot to do with the resistance of that big minie to start moving...it "seems" to help with "bump-up", or obturation.....the more technical minded may want to elaborate on this a bit.


Russ

 

[jdstrang]

:agree:

pure, soft lead. :RO:

properly sized minie :RO:

charge of 45 gr. 3f +/- 2 grains :RO:

experiment with the charge in 1/2-grain increments :RO:

Twist? There was a good reason that both armies used slow twists and heavy minies: they could hit small things at great distances with alarming consistancy.

My vote for a mould is the Lyman 575213. Old Style has thicker skirts, New Style more weight forward. Either, when properly cast, gives an excellent bullet. :imo:

 

[ResearchPress]

8 Point,
IMHO both of those rifles have a very slow twist, about 72" or even worse. They shoot roundball OK because they have a roundball twist, not nearly fast enough to stabalize any sort of conical bullet. The '58 Enfields had a 1-48 twist still slow but much better and they were the only CW rifle to shoot minies worth a damn.

Well here in the UK we shoot our Enfield's out to 600 yards and on occassions 800 yards. I haven't seen any noticeable difference between the P/53 and P/58. Both appear in the prize lists. Never saw the point in shooting roundball in a rifle designed for the Minie Bullet.

Read 'Managing the Enfield' on my web site at : http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/musketry/enfieldmanagement.htm

David

 

[Rat]

Sometimes....a minnie will shoot better with little or NO lube. I have one that demands only the bottom lube groove be LIGHTLY lubed.

Rat

 

[JackAubrey]

Hello 8point,If you will look further into this percussion forum you will find I have been on the same quest for my Armisport 1853 Enfield and 1861 Springfield.The guys here have really helped me,Rat in particular.Weathre has not permitted me to shoot for a couple of weeks but look at my post concerning .58 cal moulds.I feel your pain!!!

 

[Hellgate]

The thin skirted minies will swell the skirt & seal the barrel with the lighter target loads. I never have worked up a target load so I shoot at (didn't say "hit") deer with the Lyman 575213 Old Style heavier skirted minie and 90grs powder in the Zoli Zouave. The Enfield Musketoon (Euro) likes 90grs under the heavier 577611 Lyman minie. These are deer/elk loads and punishing in the 'Toon but it nicely killed a cow elk 3 years ago. A heavy load may swell the skirt enough to shoot accurately if the minie is a little under sized. That is the case with my .58 cal St. Louis hawken. The minie (thick skirt, however) almost rattles around in the barrel but prints 3/4" groups@50yds from a bench.