58 cal sabots

[mmarke]

Hello All, Im new to muzzleloading and will take to the field this year for whitetail in NJ. I shoot the TC Big Bore, however Im having a difficult time finding 58 cal sobots. Hornady makes the 58 cal sabots but I have not seen any for sale locally or online for other than 50 and 54 cal. Can anyone help please?? Thanks

 

[roundball]

Hello All, Im new to muzzleloading and will take to the field this year for whitetail in NJ. I shoot the TC Big Bore, however Im having a difficult time finding 58 cal sobots. Hornady makes the 58 cal sabots but I have not seen any for sale locally or online for other than 50 and 54 cal. Can anyone help please?? Thanks

Just food for thought...a .58cal patched round ball (Hornady or Speer .570/278grns) is devastating on deer, extremely accurate, and has shot completely through every deer I've taken with it...the load I settled on is:

100grns Goex 2F (could use Pyrodex RS, etc)
Oxyoke wonderwad
.018" TC prelubed pillow ticking
Hornady (or Speer) .570/278grn balls

This load zeroed at 50yds only drops 3" at 100yds for me.

.58cal round balls are usually less expensive and easy to find or order from various suppliers too...so it's an alternative you might consider.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Welcome! :thumbsup:

True a 58 PRB will certainly do the trick on deer and also large game but, I'll try to answer your question.

www.midsouthshooterssupply.com
HORNADY 58 CAL SABOT W/ 44CAL 300 GR XTP BULLET 15CT
Order No: Status: Price:
003-6740 In Stock $6.34

Or
Your best overall price:

HORNADY 58 CAL SABOTS 40-PK (these sabot's will work with any .429/.430 pistol bullet).
Order No: Status: Price:
003-6758 Low Stock $4.52
HORNADY 44 CAL .430 DIA. 300GR XTP 50CT*
Order No: Status: Price:
003-44280 In Stock $8.55

 

[Rat]

Roundball is right. Totally right. 'nuff said.

Just kidding, (about the 'nuff said) of course I've got to say more!

:yakyak:

It would be a shame to turn your nice TC big bore into a 444 Marlin using plastic sabots with tiny little pistol bullets. Might as well trade yer .58" for a .45".

If for some reason you don't want to mess with patched balls, which isn't a mess at all, try the Lee "REAL" bullet, with a Wonder Wad underneath it. It's a full size .58" bullet that is not persnickity about load development. In my .58's I put about 90-100 grains of REAL black powder underneath it. Loads as easy as a sabot.

Again, saboted pistol bullets really are kid's stuff for people with modern rifles that load from the muzzle. You have a "real" muzzle loader so don't shame the poor girl with plastic and pistol bullets. Go patched round ball or the Lee REAL. The Buffalo "Ballet" would also be another choice, that would load the same as a sabot. You can get more than enough good advice on this forum to find the right ball and patch combination, so if you are inexperienced shooting ball don't let that stop you.

:results: :imo:

At any rate good luck and have fun.

Rat

 

[Tahquamenon]

While I certainly agree that a concial or PRB would be an excellent solution, the "totally right" response would be to try and answer the question as honestly as possible.

Not blow off the question entirely and respond with a "different" solution or your personal opinion.

Ballistically, the 300gr Hornady XTP driven at higher velocities is far superior to a PRB and at minimum close to equal if not superior to a conical. The saboted 300gr xtp will also have far superior trajectory over a PRB or a heavier conical.

Now all of this said, the sabot my not fly as well from the rifle but it also may print equal to or better.

Posted the incorrect part numbers. The bullets are .452" not .430"
www.midsouthshooterssupply.com
HORNADY 58 CAL SABOT W/ 45CAL 300 GR XTP BULLET 15CT
Order No: Status: Price:
003-6740 In Stock $6.34

Or
Your best overall price:

HORNADY 58 CAL SABOTS 40-PK (these sabot's will work with any .451/.452" pistol bullet).
Order No: Status: Price:
003-6758 Low Stock $4.52
HORNADY 45 CAL .452 DIA 300GR XTP 50CT
Order No: Status: Price:
003-45230 In Stock $8.65
HORNADY 45 CAL .452 DIA 300GR XTP MAGNUM 50CT*
Order No: Status: Price:
003-45235 In Stock $8.93

300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,555 FPS 1,605 FPE
300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,593 FPS 1,695 FPE
300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,615 FPS 1,740 FPE
300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,630 FPS 1,770 FPE
300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,784 FPS 2,250 FPE
300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,849 FPS 2,280 FPE
300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,908 FPS 2,430 FPE
300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,080 FPS 2,880 FPE
300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,166 FPS 3,120 FPE


:imo: :m2c:

 

[cayugad]

If memory serves me the T/C Big Bore .58 is a 1:48 twist. I would try some roundball. Load about 100 grains of Goex FFg and a patched roundball... There is no deer out to and even past 100 yards that can take a hit from that bad boy. And the best part it is a lot cheaper to shoot patched roundball then sabots and pistol bullets...

 

[faw3]

I didnt know we had such a problem! Ive gone thru 3 catalogs and 58 cal stuff is in short supply. If you dont mind starting makeing your own (it dont cost much and it grows on you real fast) if you got a stove youll need a poy (cast iron) and a ladle (both from cabelas if you have no one close to get it from) my 58s a real enfield and a copy enfield short rifle loves the R.E.A.L. or lee modern minie target, other than balls thats as far as I ever had to try, all got me to the same place Hitten what you want to hit. Hope that helps.(and maken your own is easy and wont cost you maybe a high of 50 buck your first 100 bullets) :m2c: :front: :front:

 

[Rat]

Keep in mind that the FPE formula is very flawed, "voodoo mathmatics" if you will, and I'm not sure I would claim superiority for fast, light bullets based on that formula. Really the the Taylor KO formula is a more realistic one.

.22 calibre bullets can be driven fast enough to show impressive FPE figures also, but in "real life" they don't really take down large game very well, consistantly, as heavier, slower slugs in larger calibers. Fast and light is NOT better than big, heavy slugs. Round balls are a nice compromise between heavy, slow moving slugs, and lightning fast pistol bullets. A .452" pistol bullet will also use a lot of it's energy just in expanding, and would probably barely expand out to .58", or less. A .58" ball or slug is ALREADY that size, and a round ball will expand far beyond what the pistol bullet can do.

Speaking for myself, when I saw the question I thought the person might not be aware that he had any other choice, other than "sabots", which of course all the guys behind the counters, and the in-line shooters would suggest (insist?) to someone new to muzzle-loading. And I knew someone would steer him to the right place to find sabots, if that's truly what he wants. Also assumed that someone choosing a nice TC big bore over an inline might be interested in more traditional, and probably more effective projectiles than the mathmatical wonder-whizz saboted slugs.

But your results may vary!!!

:results: :relax: ff:

Rat

 

[bezoar]

They do insist on having everyone use a saboted round, its the only way you can get the listed velocity from the gun manufacturers booklet. And the only round ball you find outside of a specialized store only come in .22 and .177.

But the pistol bullets can expend pretty good, just depends on what variety it is. On the other hand, if your going to hunt with it check with the state game department, ive heard tell of a few states that will put you in the pokey if you use anything other then patched round ball.

 

[roundball]

Keep in mind that the FPE formula is very flawed, "voodoo mathmatics" if you will, and I'm not sure I would claim superiority for fast, light bullets based on that formula. Really the the Taylor KO formula is a more realistic one.

.22 calibre bullets can be driven fast enough to show impressive FPE figures also, but in "real life" they don't really take down large game very well, consistantly, as heavier, slower slugs in larger calibers. Fast and light is NOT better than big, heavy slugs. Round balls are a nice compromise between heavy, slow moving slugs, and lightning fast pistol bullets. A .452" pistol bullet will also use a lot of it's energy just in expanding, and would probably barely expand out to .58", or less. A .58" ball or slug is ALREADY that size, and a round ball will expand far beyond what the pistol bullet can do.

Speaking for myself, when I saw the question I thought the person might not be aware that he had any other choice, other than "sabots", which of course all the guys behind the counters, and the in-line shooters would suggest (insist?) to someone new to muzzle-loading. And I knew someone would steer him to the right place to find sabots, if that's truly what he wants. Also assumed that someone choosing a nice TC big bore over an inline might be interested in more traditional, and probably more effective projectiles than the mathmatical wonder-whizz saboted slugs.

But your results may vary!!!
:results: :relax: ff:
Rat

:agree:

I wouldn't even hesitate to go after any North American big game with a .58cal round ball except for a grizzly...and frankly, based on my personal experiences, a .58cal patched round ball is even overkill for Eastern whitetail at normal woods distances...it's biggest benefit on deer is that it gives more assurance at longer distances than the smaller cailibers, holds it's energy farther, etc...

 

[bowfish]

Hello, I have 100 MMP hi pressure sabots from precision rifle company. These came with a 58 cal buffalo hunter when I bought it I never used them it shoots great with the buffalo ballet in 380 grn. Also shoots round ball darn good to. Last year I took a doe at 60 yrds in the shoulder and drove her off her feet . All that power was what got me into wanting my bess. Any way email me at [email protected] with your address and you can have them all. :front:

 

[Tahquamenon]

Rat, I also agree with you with exception to your .22 caliber comparison as that is not remotely relative.

In addition, seeing that .570 RB weighs in at 278 grains (which is very formidable) I would not consider the 300 grain XTP small and inferior. In fact, quite the opposite in "Real Life".
Particularily when fired above 1800fps.

mmarke,

The Big Boar Rifle is 1:48 rifling as mentioned. I tried to and think I did answer your question.

In reality, with 1:48" rifling your best option will either be a patched roundball or if you want more effective performace look to a conical and possibly a wad. However, you could also try the saboted rounds as I often can get them to shoot well from a 1:48" rifling.

Also, concial's from Midsouth:

HORNADY 58 MAXI 525 GR HOLLOW BASE HOLLOW POINT 15CT
Order No: Status: Price:
003-6640 In Stock $6.71
THOMPSON CENTER ACC .58 CAL. 560 GR MAXI-HUNTER PRE-LUBRICATED BULLETS 15 PER BOX
Order No: Status: Price:
030-7790 In Stock $9.11
THOMPSON CENTER ACC .58 CAL. 555 GR MAXI-BALL PRE-LUBRICATED BULLETS 15 PER BOX
Order No: Status: Price:
030-7797 In Stock $7.83
OX-YOKE 58CAL WONDER WADS 100 BAG
Order No: Status: Price:
105-5800 On Order (click) $7.82

Regards,

Tahquamenon

 

[Rat]

Ha ha well it was getting late and I just kind of pulled that comparison out of the bag...you are right it's not a good example. Maybe comparing the .223 to a .30-30 would be better. The .223 has far more FPE than the .30-30, but which would we choose for deer hunting? Oh well maybe that don't work well either. Do'H!

:curse: :haha:

Also I'll admit that the ballistics of the saboted rounds are fine, pretty much the .444 Marlin. The question in my mind is just why duplicate the 444 Marlin with a muzzle loader, especially a traditional one...why not just use a 444? I'm AM saying that COMPARED to a 480-525 grain slug in a .58" the 300XTP would be "puny", reguardless of the FPE figures. Compared to a round ball things would be more even, but personally I'd take the ball as it is full bore diameter, and even though the RB expands well, it does not need to. The XTP is designed more for penetration than expansion, which is good, so I'd be suprised if it expanded all the way out to .58". Anyhow, no doubt that the 444 Marlin, or saboted 300 grain XTP's at 444 Marlin velocites is/are formidable killers. But why shoot them in a traditional muzzle loader?

My "weapon of choice" for much of my hunting before I became immersed in muzzle loading was a rifle in .44 magnum, shooting a 265 grain pistol bullet at only 1600 fps I dropped every deer and coyote I ever shot with it. That would be about a dozen deer and half a dozen coyotes with that rifle. I did shoot one deer with that rifle that went a ways before giving up the ghost. That was with a hard cast bullet that went through without hitting any bone. I believe a .58" ball would have dropped it.

But the question is, what does the original poster think of all this?

Rat

 

[Tahquamenon]

But the question is, what does the original poster think of all this?

Rat

Now that is a good question. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Ha ha well it was getting late and I just kind of pulled that comparison out of the bag...you are right it's not a good example. Maybe comparing the .223 to a .30-30 would be better. The .223 has far more FPE than the .30-30, but which would we choose for deer hunting? Oh well maybe that don't work well either. Do'H!

:curse: :haha:

Also I'll admit that the ballistics of the saboted rounds are fine, pretty much the .444 Marlin. The question in my mind is just why duplicate the 444 Marlin with a muzzle loader, especially a traditional one...why not just use a 444? I'm AM saying that COMPARED to a 480-525 grain slug in a .58" the 300XTP would be "puny", reguardless of the FPE figures. Compared to a round ball things would be more even, but personally I'd take the ball as it is full bore diameter, and even though the RB expands well, it does not need to. The XTP is designed more for penetration than expansion, which is good, so I'd be suprised if it expanded all the way out to .58". Anyhow, no doubt that the 444 Marlin, or saboted 300 grain XTP's at 444 Marlin velocites is/are formidable killers. But why shoot them in a traditional muzzle loader?

My "weapon of choice" for much of my hunting before I became immersed in muzzle loading was a rifle in .44 magnum, shooting a 265 grain pistol bullet at only 1600 fps I dropped every deer and coyote I ever shot with it. That would be about a dozen deer and half a dozen coyotes with that rifle. I did shoot one deer with that rifle that went a ways before giving up the ghost. That was with a hard cast bullet that went through without hitting any bone. I believe a .58" ball would have dropped it.

But the question is, what does the original poster think of all this?

Rat

Just an FYI...FWIW, my XTP experiences were more expansion than penetration...when I used to hunt with a .50cal inline, before I knew about more traditional looking rifles and patched round balls, I used Hornaday .452/300grn XTP's with 100grns of Pyrodex RS on several bucks and does.

The XTP's mushroomed perfectly to the size of a quarter, just like the photos in Hornady's catalog...tremendous expansion and energy transfer...none passed through the deer...all dropped where they stood.

But then I discovered TC Hawken percussions, then different calibers, then patched round balls, then Flintlocks, etc. The inline gathered dust and once I saw the performance of patched round balls on deer, I sold it and the scope.

Now it's Flintlocks & PRB's...taken them with .45/.50/.54/.58cals...they still all drop where they stand, or at least within sight of the stand after a 25yd sprint dead on their feet...all I hunt with now.

 

[Tahquamenon]

I agree Roundball.

I've blistered dozens of deer with the XTP.

Over penetration without excellent expansion and energy transfer was never the case.

 

[merdean]

I used to shoot a .444 Marlin. I still have about 50 rounds of ammo loaded with 300gr XTP or 315gr hard cast. Don't have the gun anymore. With my .54cal muzzle stuffers, who needs a cartridge? But ff: Get back to the original question. I am curious.....will a .58cal 1 in 48" twist stabilize a saboted bullet? My .54 1 in 48 would not shoot them straight. They keyholed. Went back to PRB then sold that rifle to buy the barrel for my new one. (1 in 70) Now that shoots PRB only!

 

[Tahquamenon]

Not the original question and off topic, but:

My my experience, the more shallow the depth of rifling the better chances of getting 1:48 to toss a sabot.

For example in my 1:48 rifles with shallow .005-7 rifling I can shoot sabot's really pretty well with higher charges.

Of the rifles I have in 1:48 with deeper rifling of .008+ that will not shoot sabot's at all regardless of charge or sabot/bullet.

The more shallow the depth of rifling the better sealing of the sabot within the barrel. If the depth of rifling is too deep or over .007, then the sabot will tend to not seal the barrel and blowby/low velocities is the result which causes poor stabilization. I notice that the sabot itself is often damaged after being fired through deeper rifling barrels.

I'll be happy to take those XTP's off your hands.

My .002

 

[BS]

merdean, in your 54 try some Hornady 44x180s or 200 grainers. The 300s are too long and will not stabilize, but the 200s should work fine. 80-90grains of 3f.

 

[Tahquamenon]

BS, the Hornady Sabot Part number that was provided was for .452" 45 cal bullets not .430" .44 cal bullets. 44 cal will not fit correctly within the sabot.

I shoot a .58 cal with .005 rifling depth with the .452" 300gr XTP 45cal bullet and sabot with decent accuracy as good as a conical and excellent performance.

If anything the 240 & 250gr .452" 45 cal bullet which I've not tried:
.452 45 CAL 240 GR XTP/MAG more info
.452 45 CAL 250 GR Hollow Point/XTP

I would agree that the .430"/44 cal 300gr XTP will not work because the sabot is for .452"/45cal bullets.

In fact, I am not aware of any .58 cal sabot that is designed for .429/.430" 44cal bullets. Everything I've ever seen is for .451/.452" 45 cal bullets. :hmm: