Asking for help with a Rifle Shoppe Baker Rifle: groups at 50 yards have become dreadful.

[Oldchief]

Watching this one with some interest.
I've been doing the same dance as wahkahchimaol all summer, a TRS Baker P1800 with the slow twist Colerain barrel, 80 gr 3f Swiss behind a .595 RB from a Lee single cavity mold with a .020 linen patch lubed with moose milk, windshieldwasher fluid, olive oil or olive oil and beeswax, not all at once.
I did soften the edges of the crown and have used JB bore paste to smooth up the rifling.
Most of my patches are shredded, which may indicate the need for more aggressive polishing of the rifling?
I even tried patching with ~.020 chamois leather lubed with olive oil, no patches were recovered.
Jim/oldchief

 

[Mattox Forge]

I always thought the kick happened after the bullet exited the barrel. he might be anticipating the recoil as he pulls the trigger

Nooo. Recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts moving. Any flinching going on while the bullet is in the barrel wil affect accuracy.

The flintlock has the added challenge of having a flash and load noise from the pan that may startle the shooter causing flinching.

Mike

 

[Mattox Forge]

Watching this one with some interest.
I've been doing the same dance as wahkahchimaol all summer, a TRS Baker P1800 with the slow twist Colerain barrel, 80 gr 3f Swiss behind a .695 RB from a Lee single cavity mold with a .020 linen patch lubed with moose milk, windshieldwasher fluid, olive oil or olive oil and beeswax, not all at once.
I did soften the edges of the crown and have used JB bore paste to smooth up the rifling.
Most of my patches are shredded, which may indicate the need for more aggressive polishing of the rifling?
I even tried patching with ~.020 chamois leather lubed with olive oil, no patches were recovered.
Jim/oldchief

A .595 ball you mean. When did you get your gun? Mine has a rough spot about halfway down the barrel. I received the kit in June of 2021.

Mike

 

[waksupi]

KEY question - what barrel twist did you get? The original had a sloooooooow twist of 1 in 120", and not the typical roundball twist of 1 in 66" or thereabouts.

FWIW 2 guys at my BP Club built rifled Bakers from TRS kits and it took them WEEKS of experimenting to get results they liked with that slow twist. I will tell you that they tested many different patch mateirals or thicknesses and I recall from 70 to > 100-grain loads. And if I remember correctly, both are shooting around 90-grains now.

I'll try to get their load recipes ... I'll email them now ...

I had Jerry Cunningham make me a 1-120 .62 barrel years ago. It took 180 gr. 2F to shoot well. My current .62 has 1-66, and shoots well with 95gr. 3FFF.

 

[Oldchief]

Mattox Forge- I received my kit in late August 2023.
I edited my post to correct the ball size to .595, thanks for noting my mistake.
The bore of the Colerain barrel seems to be free of obvious rough spots.
Jim/oldchief

 

[loflyr55]

Consider glass bedding around tang, breach and possibly under barrel, in that order

 

[Eterry]

I always thought the kick happened after the bullet exited the barrel. he might be anticipating the recoil as he pulls the trigger

I shoot Big Bore Centerfire Dangerous Game Calibers. It ABSOLUTELY matters where the front rest is. My biggest big bore will jump almost a foot if left freehand, and will ruin a good group. Small bores aren't so sensitive, in my experience.
Most match shooter knows many cartridges don't reach their Zenith MOA until past 100 yards. The SWAT team's Sniper rifle would shoot 1 MOA@100yds, .3MOA@300yds, and .7MOA@500yds.
Yes, group size matters, POI means nothing.
How much powder are you putting in the pan? With my first flintlock I filled the pan brimming full. You could head the powder cook down to the vent, then Boom! Again, no internet back then, so I sold it. I later learned just a few grains (weight) will do so much better.
If your patches have holes you need a thicker patch, or use Green Scotchbrite pads to smooth the bore... or both.
Good luck, there's many here with more flintlock experience than I, but here's my .02.

 

[Rudyard]

Hi,
As Mike wrote, check your patches after shooting. Are they torn or burned up? I had a Getz barrel that was terrible at first because the edges of the lands were too sharp and they cut up the patches during loading. The solution was lapping the bore many times with Scotch Bright pads and steel wool.

dave

I restored a much' Got at '& super' Bubba ed' pre 1805 Baker its bore had 2 hundred & 80 odd years to 'shoot in' . Very first shot at 100 yards was at a noted anti gunner photo cut out of a newspaper . first shot was right between the mince eyes . Was like the gun saying' thankyou ', Didnt keep like that but' figure of a man' and is much as Ide expect there not target rifles with that 1 in 90 inches pitch . I doubt the TRS barrels normally have that slow a pitch . Our Rob who does such extensive tests under service conditions has more than the 1/4 in 30" pitch and Ime sure his rifle is well shot in by now .
Rudyard who's toying with making an East India Company Baker ,( saves inletting the wrist escution )any one got a spare fusil size Bakers pattern lock 1818 ?If not Ile make the very first style lock per David Harding's books the Baker & Negus one shown . I recall the Company had 60 Nock made Fergusons but the multi start plug is beyond my caprice or Ide make one .
Rudyard again

 

[Rudyard]

I shoot Big Bore Centerfire Dangerous Game Calibers. It ABSOLUTELY matters where the front rest is. My biggest big bore will jump almost a foot if left freehand, and will ruin a good group. Small bores aren't so sensitive, in my experience.
Most match shooter knows many cartridges don't reach their Zenith MOA until past 100 yards. The SWAT team's Sniper rifle would shoot 1 MOA@100yds, .3MOA@300yds, and .7MOA@500yds.
Yes, group size matters, POI means nothing.
How much powder are you putting in the pan? With my first flintlock I filled the pan brimming full. You could head the powder cook down to the vent, then Boom! Again, no internet back then, so I sold it. I later learned just a few grains (weight) will do so much better.
If your patches have holes you need a thicker patch, or use Green Scotchbrite pads to smooth the bore... or both.
Good luck, there's many here with more flintlock experience than I, but here's my 2c

I used to buy old doble rifles in India 577 3' if mostly 500 3 & a quarter" & 450 3 & a quarter. Jones under lever hammer rifles. bit of an over kill on Roo's .

Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

I had Jerry Cunningham make me a 1-120 .62 barrel years ago. It took 180 gr. 2F to shoot well. My current .62 has 1-66, and shoots well with 95gr. 3FFF.

Jerry Cuningham made my Baker barrels he described them as "Bloody brutal Baker barrels "they where 1/4 pitch per govt but didnt do as well as Bre Rob . Might be he nut behind the but . hard to say & harder to admit ! .
Rudyard being brassy

 

[Siringo]

Yes, I’m told by several folks who know way more than I, that barrel harmonics do indeed impact accuracy with muzzleloading barrels. The correct loads, barrel stability, and so forth will all have direct affect on that. Dialing in a new rifle is a long game!
Regarding how to hold the gun on a bench rest, I have seen ML’s being fired with no hand grip forward the trigger and they preformed quite well! But my own personal experience is that securing the forearm gives me a hundred percent improvement. With my .62 I am hitting torso size targets at 200 yards rather consistently, which I’m happily surprised at.

Spot on here. Especially the bench technique. I grasp the forearm when in the bags. I try to emulate actual shooting conditions. Heavy recoiling guns JUMP.

Also, in my experience a straight octagon barrel is very forgiving. A light swamped barrel is not. They are like a tuning fork.

 

[bigstick6017555]

For me I have found that with most flintlock shooters that no flinch and follow thru account for a lot of unknown inaccuracy.

Nooo. Recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts moving. Any flinching going on while the bullet is in the barrel wil affect accuracy.

The flintlock has the added challenge of having a flash and load noise from the pan that may startle the shooter causing flinching.

Mike

agree 100% but may I also add that in a modern fire arm from the time you pull the trigger, till ignition, and the projectile leaves the barrel is approx. 4.1 to10.5 milliseconds. In a Flintlock it is approx. 38 to 53 milliseconds , that leaves a lot of time for strange things too happen before the projectile leaves a Flintlock barrel, and affect accuracy.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

FYI, due to some PM questions, I updated my picture to more clearly illustrate why finding the accuracy node of any firearm that shoots a projectile (BP or modern) is so critical to accuracy, i.e., you want to find the load charge where the load exits the muzzle - which is vibrating like a tuning fork - at the moment of its least movement possible.

Note short fat barrels are more forgiving in that you can see it would be possible to find an accuracy node at the 'middle' of the total movement range. In fact, I've proven that with a 31" heavy barreled Jaeger I have where loads spanning 15-grains all shoot 1-hole groups. My plan is to take that rifle out to 100-yards to see difference on paper between those charges within that +/- 7.5 grain range.

Fun facts - In MZl'drs so far I've found 3 accuracy nodes - which is cool ... as I then got a low power (say 40-grn) load - a mid-power (65-grns) load and a higher power 'hunting' load (~85-grns). With 'other' modern rifles, some may identify up to 6 nodes, which is why we then further tune at distance, some out to 1,000 yards!

 

[Rudyard]

Spot on here. Especially the bench technique. I grasp the forearm when in the bags. I try to emulate actual shooting conditions. Heavy recoiling guns JUMP.

Also, in my experience a straight octagon barrel is very forgiving. A light swamped barrel is not. They are like a tuning fork.

Stringo has Sound advise if I still like the swamped , My pet bush rifle has 26" round swamped barrel mid 18th English provincial flint style ,weighs just 5 pounds entire, barrel is 2 pounds . No target rifle but a joy to hunt with .Hills not getting any flatter , could be this global warming ?.
Regards Rudyard

 

[SPQR70AD]

I shoot Big Bore Centerfire Dangerous Game Calibers. It ABSOLUTELY matters where the front rest is. My biggest big bore will jump almost a foot if left freehand, and will ruin a good group. Small bores aren't so sensitive, in my experience.
Most match shooter knows many cartridges don't reach their Zenith MOA until past 100 yards. The SWAT team's Sniper rifle would shoot 1 MOA@100yds, .3MOA@300yds, and .7MOA@500yds.
Yes, group size matters, POI means nothing.
How much powder are you putting in the pan? With my first flintlock I filled the pan brimming full. You could head the powder cook down to the vent, then Boom! Again, no internet back then, so I sold it. I later learned just a few grains (weight) will do so much better.
If your patches have holes you need a thicker patch, or use Green Scotchbrite pads to smooth the bore... or both.
Good luck, there's many here with more flintlock experience than I, but here's my .02.

nobody is shooting dangerous game from a rest and everybody knows not to put a barrel on a fence post or rest messing up the harmonics. long match bullets are slightly wobbling at short range and stabilize at longer range. recoil happens after the bullet exits

 

[SPQR70AD]

Nooo. Recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts moving. Any flinching going on while the bullet is in the barrel wil affect accuracy.

The flintlock has the added challenge of having a flash and load noise from the pan that may startle the shooter causing flinching.

Mike

 

[SPQR70AD]

Nooo. Recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts moving. Any flinching going on while the bullet is in the barrel wil affect accuracy.

The flintlock has the added challenge of having a flash and load noise from the pan that may startle the shooter causing flinching.

Mike

if that is true how can anybody hit anything with say a 460 weatherby? or even a 30-06 or a 150 gr BP load with a 500 grain bullet?

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Nooo. Recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts moving. Any flinching going on while the bullet is in the barrel wil affect accuracy.

^^^Truth^^^ ... Newton's 3rd Law of Physics in action!

if that is true how can anybody hit anything with say a 460 weatherby? or even a 30-06 or a 150 gr BP load with a 500 grain bullet?

Simple ... time ... the bullet is mostly exiting - but not quite - by the time one "feels" and their body responds to the recoil 'moment' (another physics term).

 

[Rudyard]

if that is true how can anybody hit anything with say a 460 weatherby? or even a 30-06 or a 150 gr BP load with a 500 grain bullet?

My post went in a wrong spot but it matters not. All the scientific stuff has me lost . Not that I question it but I cant grasp nor add to the science . Rudyard

 

[Mattox Forge]

if that is true how can anybody hit anything with say a 460 weatherby? or even a 30-06 or a 150 gr BP load with a 500 grain bullet?

You don't move much because of the relatively large difference in mass between the rifle/shooter mass and the bullet and accelerating gas mass, but Newtons second and third laws of physics apply as soon as the bullet and powder gas start moving and you do move. Believe me it's true. I have high speed videos of 30mm and 105mm guns I worked on that clearly show barrel recoil movement well before the bullet exits the muzzle. Small arms do the same thing.
Mike