Scroll up Dan, its just for real men, not guys like me and you :rotf:
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.58 caliber HEAVY conicals???
- Thread starter blkpowder50
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All you heros who are shooting conicals for large potentially animals should do some RESEARCH.
Conicals were found to be INEFFECTIVE on dangerous game in Africa and India soon after they were invented. But people need to reinvent the wheel or refuse to learn from the past. I have a rifle that shoots a 1 ounce ball (.662"). It will shoot hardened lead or soft lead.
Now we go to the past. James Forsythe tells us that his 14 bore rifle (.69 caliber) rifle with short barrels (it was a double) shooting a 137 gr of powder that was likely about like FFF today, and hardened ball would shoot though an Indian Elephants head.
Then we have Sir Samuel Baker and his 6 bore "Devil Stopper" that shot a belted ball. He had a conical mould made for it to make it better. He was nearly killed by elephant it failed to stop so he reverted to the belted ball to restore its efficiency. But of course everyone today is an expert. Even though COMPLETELY ignorant of what was used in the past. Conicals were not used for heavy game until the advent of the breech loader and then the heavy rifles, 4 bores for example, shot a "bullet" that was virtually the same weight as a round ball. Also many people in the 1870s were STILL using large bore MLs with RBs for heavy game. See "A Hunters Wanderings in Africa". Or Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles" or some of Baker's writings. But of course this would provide information contrary to the modern arm chair experts.
What was found in the past was that a HARDENED RB will penetrate FARTHER and straighter than a necessarily SOFT conical will. But all the modern "experts" "know" that the RB won't work....
So if you are REALLY worried about those nasty old pigs get a 69 and shoot hard lead balls and 140-160 grains or powder. I think you will find that it will produce more effect on the target than a 58 bullet will.
So far as all the d!ck waving over recoil tolerance. Shooting a big gun that kicks the hell out of you (read Fredrick Selous' comments on his 4 bores) is no measure of how tough you are. Selous at least had a valid reason to shoot a 4 bore. I have shot a few brass suppository "Elephant guns" some as a job and some for fun I have no reason to due so in a practical sense. Do to damage to my neck years ago I have pretty much given up on my 16 bore rifle as well as I have aged.
I would also point out that when you start all the chest thumping remember that there are people here who have done things that take a hell of a lot more guts than hunting pigs that can't shoot back or shooting some stupidly heavy charge of powder behind an equally silly weight of lead.
Dan
Conicals were found to be INEFFECTIVE on dangerous game in Africa and India soon after they were invented. But people need to reinvent the wheel or refuse to learn from the past. I have a rifle that shoots a 1 ounce ball (.662"). It will shoot hardened lead or soft lead.
Now we go to the past. James Forsythe tells us that his 14 bore rifle (.69 caliber) rifle with short barrels (it was a double) shooting a 137 gr of powder that was likely about like FFF today, and hardened ball would shoot though an Indian Elephants head.
Then we have Sir Samuel Baker and his 6 bore "Devil Stopper" that shot a belted ball. He had a conical mould made for it to make it better. He was nearly killed by elephant it failed to stop so he reverted to the belted ball to restore its efficiency. But of course everyone today is an expert. Even though COMPLETELY ignorant of what was used in the past. Conicals were not used for heavy game until the advent of the breech loader and then the heavy rifles, 4 bores for example, shot a "bullet" that was virtually the same weight as a round ball. Also many people in the 1870s were STILL using large bore MLs with RBs for heavy game. See "A Hunters Wanderings in Africa". Or Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles" or some of Baker's writings. But of course this would provide information contrary to the modern arm chair experts.
What was found in the past was that a HARDENED RB will penetrate FARTHER and straighter than a necessarily SOFT conical will. But all the modern "experts" "know" that the RB won't work....
So if you are REALLY worried about those nasty old pigs get a 69 and shoot hard lead balls and 140-160 grains or powder. I think you will find that it will produce more effect on the target than a 58 bullet will.
So far as all the d!ck waving over recoil tolerance. Shooting a big gun that kicks the hell out of you (read Fredrick Selous' comments on his 4 bores) is no measure of how tough you are. Selous at least had a valid reason to shoot a 4 bore. I have shot a few brass suppository "Elephant guns" some as a job and some for fun I have no reason to due so in a practical sense. Do to damage to my neck years ago I have pretty much given up on my 16 bore rifle as well as I have aged.
I would also point out that when you start all the chest thumping remember that there are people here who have done things that take a hell of a lot more guts than hunting pigs that can't shoot back or shooting some stupidly heavy charge of powder behind an equally silly weight of lead.
Dan
I think is was forget of navy arms that had a 6 or 650 grain minnie in a 26 inch rife loaded on 180 grains 3 f, called a hawkin hurricain.Thats where the thought that lyman had a 6 or 650 mentioned above. He missed the elephants brain but went through 18 inchs of bone. Would be no use for me, but neither would a cannon or ar 15...to each their own.
This here 'girly man ' is happy with a 120 lbs deer and his .62 smoothy :wink:
This here 'girly man ' is happy with a 120 lbs deer and his .62 smoothy :wink:
The problem with what was called "expansive" as they were called, projectiles is that they must be soft enough to expand and fill the bore. This makes them too soft for best penetration.
Turner Kirkland went to Africa with a 4 bore to shoot an elephant but being unread and thinking a ML is a ML and if soft lead was OK for a Squirrel Rifle then it should work for Elephant. It did not and he did not get sufficient penetration due the the balls expanding and penetration was not enough for a kill. Had he bothered to read about hunting in Africa with MLs he would have known that he needed to use hardened lead for large game. A 10 bore gun with hardened balls will penetrate well enough to kill African Elephant and Rhino. See "Pondoro" by John Taylor he used a 10 bore smooth ML for a time in the 1930s.
The other issues with "naked" bullets in MLs is that they tend to move off the powder. They also produce far higher pressure than a round ball of the same weight but have no better killing power at the ranges that dangerous game guns are used and in fact make smaller wound channels.
Conicals WILL greatly increase the distance the bullet will fly compared to the RB. But the velocity is so low that the trajectory is very high compared to the RB over normal hunting distances.
Dan
Turner Kirkland went to Africa with a 4 bore to shoot an elephant but being unread and thinking a ML is a ML and if soft lead was OK for a Squirrel Rifle then it should work for Elephant. It did not and he did not get sufficient penetration due the the balls expanding and penetration was not enough for a kill. Had he bothered to read about hunting in Africa with MLs he would have known that he needed to use hardened lead for large game. A 10 bore gun with hardened balls will penetrate well enough to kill African Elephant and Rhino. See "Pondoro" by John Taylor he used a 10 bore smooth ML for a time in the 1930s.
The other issues with "naked" bullets in MLs is that they tend to move off the powder. They also produce far higher pressure than a round ball of the same weight but have no better killing power at the ranges that dangerous game guns are used and in fact make smaller wound channels.
Conicals WILL greatly increase the distance the bullet will fly compared to the RB. But the velocity is so low that the trajectory is very high compared to the RB over normal hunting distances.
Dan
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Dan Phariss said:
Using those well-known Phub formulae, I figger out a ROT of once a week would suffice.
tac
hahahaha.
after the one time I shot a great plains hornady 500+ gr bullet over 120 gr 3f in my .58 hawkin :shocked2: I'm glad to be a girly man :redface:
after the one time I shot a great plains hornady 500+ gr bullet over 120 gr 3f in my .58 hawkin :shocked2: I'm glad to be a girly man :redface:
I don't knew diddily about African hunting, and unlikely to ever find out about it. I have found prb to be great for American game. We have to keep in mind Minnie's were designed for the battlefield where a wound is as good or better then a kill. You sacrifice range, but we are hunting after all, not just shooting game.
Kirkland did kill with his cape gun didn't he. Or did he have to have his back up shoot? I seam to remember forgett had to have a back up kill with modern elephant gun.
Kirkland did kill with his cape gun didn't he. Or did he have to have his back up shoot? I seam to remember forgett had to have a back up kill with modern elephant gun.
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A few (I hope pertinent) comments:
1. The old-time elephant hunters with their 2/4/6/8 bore double rifles were hardly "undergunned" BUT the technique of hardening the forward portion of a lead CB hadn't been introduced to Africa, though the Germans HAD discovered how to do it.
(For military weapons)
2. Lord (COL) Baden-Powell owned/collected any number of Cape Buffalo, hippo & rhino with an 8-bore SxS rifle that he thought "adequate for any game at hunting ranges". - Therefore, the BIGGER bore double rifles used by other 19th Century professional hunters were probably un-necessary, except under the worst conditions.
and
3. I believe that you are correct about a .69 caliber rifle with PRB being "perfectly suitable" for our Russian/feral crosses.
thanks, tex
1. The old-time elephant hunters with their 2/4/6/8 bore double rifles were hardly "undergunned" BUT the technique of hardening the forward portion of a lead CB hadn't been introduced to Africa, though the Germans HAD discovered how to do it.
(For military weapons)
2. Lord (COL) Baden-Powell owned/collected any number of Cape Buffalo, hippo & rhino with an 8-bore SxS rifle that he thought "adequate for any game at hunting ranges". - Therefore, the BIGGER bore double rifles used by other 19th Century professional hunters were probably un-necessary, except under the worst conditions.
and
3. I believe that you are correct about a .69 caliber rifle with PRB being "perfectly suitable" for our Russian/feral crosses.
thanks, tex
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If you don't mind casting, and your rifle's twist rate is compatible ...
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=59-780B-D.png
http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=21
Or design your own. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bulletDesign.php
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=59-780B-D.png
http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=21
Or design your own. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bulletDesign.php
Last edited by a moderator:
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:rotf: Yup, that's just about all the "fun" I can enjoy with them as well and I use a strap on PAST pad.
Sternum usually talks back to me the next day too, course that is to be expected when ones shoulder blades slap together behind your back when the light comes on in the breech. :rotf:
Sternum usually talks back to me the next day too, course that is to be expected when ones shoulder blades slap together behind your back when the light comes on in the breech. :rotf:
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Ah, back to comparing VSB* to SLB*.
Personally my preference for any game larger than iguanodon is the 1847 Fremont .69 rifled musket with hardened lead ball. Penetration is assured with 450 grains of hardened metal and the commonly used Army issue 700 plus grain minie is simply an inordinate expenditure of lead.
*That's very short bullets, with round fronts and round backsides as close together as possible.
**That's slightly longer bullets.
Personally my preference for any game larger than iguanodon is the 1847 Fremont .69 rifled musket with hardened lead ball. Penetration is assured with 450 grains of hardened metal and the commonly used Army issue 700 plus grain minie is simply an inordinate expenditure of lead.
*That's very short bullets, with round fronts and round backsides as close together as possible.
**That's slightly longer bullets.
He answered this earlier...Dan Phariss said:
All opinions and data are irrelavent. He likes it. Can't argue with that. :haha:blkpowder50 said:
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Well said Dan! :hatsoff:
At one time I liked it when my wife would slap the snot out of me, however at my age I no longer enjoy it. :surrender:
:rotf:
Billnpatti
Cannon
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"Sounds like the sure path to a subacromial decompression and perhaps a supra spinatus ligament reattachment. Your ortho surgeon will get a few car payments out of your insurance company. Better make sure you are not diabetic or otherwise prone to detached retinas before the range session."
Yep, Zimmer, I completely agree with your assessment. Why anyone would seek such unnecessary punishment is beyond me. That .58 is a hell of a thumper at 100 yards with a patched round ball and a load of only 60 grains of powder. I think he ought to stick with a patched round ball and an accurate load rather than the way he seems to want to go. But, different strokes for different folks. :idunno:
Yep, Zimmer, I completely agree with your assessment. Why anyone would seek such unnecessary punishment is beyond me. That .58 is a hell of a thumper at 100 yards with a patched round ball and a load of only 60 grains of powder. I think he ought to stick with a patched round ball and an accurate load rather than the way he seems to want to go. But, different strokes for different folks. :idunno:
Keep an eye out in the classified section here, on other muzzleloading sites and in the auction sites. Shiloh used to make that big ole honking "Stake Buster" mold which was a full wadcutter in .58 caliber size. Imagine they show up now and again.
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Wouldn't be to hard to make your own wadcutter mold.
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You could always machine the bullets out of lead bar stock :grin:
