I have an armisport 1861 sringfield and I cant hit the broad side of a barn with this thing. I was wondering if anybody has figured out what this gun likes to shoot. I am using 65 gr. of 3f goex with a 460 gr. .577 minie ball. I know the minie's arn't the best quality(dixie gun works, I cant afford a lyman mould right now). At approx. 50 yards it shoots way high. I got closer at 30 yards and hit about 3" off bulls eye, but it looked like the minie hit the target sideways. I reduced my powder to 55 and then 50 gr. in that order. The minie hit the target and made a clean hole (not sideways) but I can get better patterns from my smoothbore flinter and twice the distance. A rifle should shoot way better than that. Any suggestions. Also what should I use as a lube on minies,and should I have a patch.
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61 springfield
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1st of all, you should be using 2F for a gentler send-off for the minnie balls. Minnies HAVE to have perfect skirts or they'll blow out, causing keyholes. The should be a snug sliding fit in the barrel.
; Try a patched round ball with the same charge. They usually shoot very well in the rifled muskets.
; Hitting high is normal. The guns were meant to be aimed at the enemy's middle as far out as they were ordered to shoot. At longer ranges, as on the plains, they would be ordered to change sights for even longer shots.
: To get it to shoot where you want, you have to alter the sights, same as any other rifle. Different loads shoot to different points of impact. This is normal.
; Perfect ammunition will give better results. I would try some .570 balls and a .015" to .018" patch of denim, lubed with spit for range shooting. Any charge to 120gr. 2F should be just fine. I normally use 2F in large bores and your .58 qualifies as a large bore. The one I had shot ammazingly well with patched balls but only mediocre with minnies. With round balls, they make good big game rifles.
; Try a patched round ball with the same charge. They usually shoot very well in the rifled muskets.
; Hitting high is normal. The guns were meant to be aimed at the enemy's middle as far out as they were ordered to shoot. At longer ranges, as on the plains, they would be ordered to change sights for even longer shots.
: To get it to shoot where you want, you have to alter the sights, same as any other rifle. Different loads shoot to different points of impact. This is normal.
; Perfect ammunition will give better results. I would try some .570 balls and a .015" to .018" patch of denim, lubed with spit for range shooting. Any charge to 120gr. 2F should be just fine. I normally use 2F in large bores and your .58 qualifies as a large bore. The one I had shot ammazingly well with patched balls but only mediocre with minnies. With round balls, they make good big game rifles.
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My 61 Armisport shoots best with Rapine trashcans (wadcutters) and 50gr of 2F I get 1.5" groups at 50 yds and 3.5" groups at 100 yds with this set up. Im dont remember the mold # its .577 sized to .577 as I recall my bore size was .580.I also lube the sides with a beeswax oil 50/50 mix with crisco in the bullet base.
These rifle muskets are finicky, but can be good shooters. First, you must have the right size bullet for your bore. There is a lot of variation in the manufacture of the bores on these guns. You should be using a minie no more than .oo2 under bore size. I have to admit, that sounded a bit technical, so I managed to get hold of several different sizes and just experimented. Yours may require a larger bullet. Also that is a pretty strong load, my Armisport 1861 shoots great with 60 gr of ffg, if you are going to use fffg that would probably be equivalent to about 45 gr. I would start at around 40 gr of fffg or 50 gr of ffg and work from there. I use a 50/50 crisco beeswax mixture for lube, but sometimes I get lazy and use just crisco. It is a lot messier than the mix, but for shooting off the bench seems to work OK. Most of all, don't give up! These can be frustrating, but once you hit the right load, it is a lot of fun!
Guest
Well OK I lube with 50/50 beeswax jetoil but you can use beeswax crisco you will have to raise your front sight blade to get it to shoot low enough for 50 yds. Look on the NSSA bulltin board for good info on these guns. Send me a private post with your address I will send you some of these to try
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RussB
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There is NEVER a "dumb" question. Lighten up on yerself :winking:
It seems that caster's who pour their own bullets, coined the name "Trashcan" years ago when moulds started appearing that produced a wad-cutter bullet that resembled a trashcan when stood on it's end. Rapine moulds are one of the better bullet moulds on the market today. Although I own a couple, a 580315, and a 578315 neither are wad cutters, although the 315gr performs quite well in a 1:72 twist.
My favorite for the 1861 Colt is a Lyman 575213PH at 565gr. However, it must be loaded pretty heavy due to it's very "thick" skirt. Shooting this puppy for more than 20 loads keys up the old reflexes to the point of flinching, and that ain't good.
Russ
smokeblower
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I agree, go with ff powder and order yourself a .58 Lee REAL mould. Midway shooting supply has the best price and fast shipping. This is the bullet I use in my Euroarms.58 Remington 'z". The R.E.A.L. willbeat the round ball in the larger bore guns. No keyholing, no powder build-up and no cleaning between shots. This is the rebirth of the old Civil War Williams cleaner bullets, just improved and easy to cast. I wish they would make this bullet mould in a .69 cal.
RussB
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Bishop....I don't think anyone has addressed your problem directly, and I feel that is because there are so many variables here. Have you actually "sluged" the barrel of "your" rifle? The reason I ask is because there are many ways to "improve" on accuracy, but first off you HAVE TO KNOW exactly what the land / groove measurement is.
I started out "thinking" my Colt was .577, but I learned real quick that was not the case. In fact, my "best" load (for target use @ 50yds) turns out to be a .580 / 315gr conical, w/45gr FFFg. and homemade lube, or a .570 round ball and .020 patch. This does not suggest your's would be the same, it's just an example.
I'm told that Lee once made an .577 OS R.E.A.L. (OS is for Over Size, not Original Size) I am still looking for one, and have let a couple get by on eBay because the price got out of hand.
I do hope you get that thing shooting to your satisfaction. It took me a looooong time. But now "It's a hoot to shoot".
Good luck.
Russ
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Calipers are fine for measuring. Dial calipers are easier to read than linear with digital's being the easiest as long as they are zero'd before use. (they all have to be zero'd, but I've seen guys measur without doing that and wonder why their measurment is way out. The local gun shop will have a pair for you to use if you don't. Does anyone know why a pair of calipers is called a pair when it's a single instrument/tool? I know there are two pieces so presumably each is a caliper, however either piece is nothing on it's own, except for a hoe for gardening miniature plants. :: :shake:
I have a dixie 1861 spring field that would not shoot minnies worth a darn, then I found out it has a 1/77 twist.Shoots .570 hornadys like a laser ! Even I only have to point and squeeze. Although I have never shot your brand musket, it might be time to double check tech data,and catalouge listing to make sure you have correct rifling twist. well its just a thought.
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I seem to recall the original twist on the .58's was 72". The English 3 bander Enfield was also 72", however the 2 band Engield and 24' Musketoon both had 48" twist barrels, same as the originals.
: The Parker Hale reproductions have the original, progressive depth rifling on the 48" twist rifle and carbine only. The 3 band Enfield and all Italian repro's of the .58 cal's now have constand depth rifling(in the 1970's). The origianl American .58 minnie rifles and the re-bored and rifled .69's & 54's ALL had progressive depth rifling, meant for the minnie, hollow based 'balls'. This rifling was some .015" deep at the breech, and .003" deep at the muzzle. The bore size was constant. Due to the constant tightening of the projectile in the barrel, improved accuracy was the result and is why they were sighted to ranges out to 1,000yds.(a bit of dreaming there)
: The 48" twiston the Zouaves, etc., is a present day attempt to increase the accuracy of these guns using the longer minnies with heavier bases for musket matches.
; The 72" twist guns shot exceptionally well with patched RB and were terrific for a modern production Moose rifle(when using patched round balls). They were much less effctive with minnie balls due to thin skirts and low velocities. A short R.E.A.L.-type bullet might have been better, perhaps. The .570RB's were great.
: The Parker Hale reproductions have the original, progressive depth rifling on the 48" twist rifle and carbine only. The 3 band Enfield and all Italian repro's of the .58 cal's now have constand depth rifling(in the 1970's). The origianl American .58 minnie rifles and the re-bored and rifled .69's & 54's ALL had progressive depth rifling, meant for the minnie, hollow based 'balls'. This rifling was some .015" deep at the breech, and .003" deep at the muzzle. The bore size was constant. Due to the constant tightening of the projectile in the barrel, improved accuracy was the result and is why they were sighted to ranges out to 1,000yds.(a bit of dreaming there)
: The 48" twiston the Zouaves, etc., is a present day attempt to increase the accuracy of these guns using the longer minnies with heavier bases for musket matches.
; The 72" twist guns shot exceptionally well with patched RB and were terrific for a modern production Moose rifle(when using patched round balls). They were much less effctive with minnie balls due to thin skirts and low velocities. A short R.E.A.L.-type bullet might have been better, perhaps. The .570RB's were great.
do not know original twist and can't find my ref. book (I'am packing to move ), but I'am sure some one here knows. While your waiting , why not pick up some round balls and go make some smoke. when the smoke clears you might have a bulls eye or two! ok ok I know thats my dream, but what the heck, its worth a shot.
RussB
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Daryl...Your thoughts reflect me own thinking, pretty much.
My own 1861 Colt Musket has a 1:72 twist, and the shorter the Minie, the better it shoots....for the most part.
The Rapine Mould 580315, throws a 315gr HB Minie, that is very short in relation to it's diameter. I have very few problems with this bullet, no matter what the load, or what the lube is. As a mater of fact, I have started lubing this particular Minie with Lee Alox, because I'm just too lazy at times to properly pan lube them as I did for several years. Once I found out they shoot just as well, without leading, and with very little recoil, just by "Shaking 40 or 50 in a soft sided tumbler, and allowing to dry" then shot over 45gr of FFFg, I've never looked back.
Now the "big" conicals...such as the Parker Hale 565 gr, requires a "proper" lube and is much more sensitive to loading procedures, requires MUCH larger charges, and beats the daylights out of ya after about 20 rounds, but it's still a favorite. For some reason you feel you are accomplishing something when you get the big guy's to shoot right. Ya just "grin & bare it" I guess.
I think I would have to recommend the 315gr for anyone with a slow twist .58 cal, trying to find out what their rifle will actualy do on paper. These guns realy "strive" on a simple RB/Patch with Lehigh Lube, but it will surprise many people to find out how accurate a little slug can be in the slow twist. And, you can push it much faster than the "heavy" conicals, without all the recoil and wiping associated with the big heavy conicals.
I don't have a Lee mould for the REAL in .58 cal that I can call my own. I have used my son in law's, but that was several years back when I first got the 1861. and was having problems understanding all that was happening. This thing drove me crazy when I first got it, all it wanted to shoot was RB and Patch and I was changing too many variables at once to get a grip on it.
I suppose the REAL would perform just as well as the Rapine HB, although it is a SB, I will have to cast some more, or even better....steal some, already cast, from my son in law,
........and give them an "accuracy" test side by side. I have been very impressed with all the other REAL's over the years...once I learned how to shoot them.
Just my thoughts.
Respectfully, Russ
My own 1861 Colt Musket has a 1:72 twist, and the shorter the Minie, the better it shoots....for the most part.
The Rapine Mould 580315, throws a 315gr HB Minie, that is very short in relation to it's diameter. I have very few problems with this bullet, no matter what the load, or what the lube is. As a mater of fact, I have started lubing this particular Minie with Lee Alox, because I'm just too lazy at times to properly pan lube them as I did for several years. Once I found out they shoot just as well, without leading, and with very little recoil, just by "Shaking 40 or 50 in a soft sided tumbler, and allowing to dry" then shot over 45gr of FFFg, I've never looked back.
Now the "big" conicals...such as the Parker Hale 565 gr, requires a "proper" lube and is much more sensitive to loading procedures, requires MUCH larger charges, and beats the daylights out of ya after about 20 rounds, but it's still a favorite. For some reason you feel you are accomplishing something when you get the big guy's to shoot right. Ya just "grin & bare it" I guess.
I think I would have to recommend the 315gr for anyone with a slow twist .58 cal, trying to find out what their rifle will actualy do on paper. These guns realy "strive" on a simple RB/Patch with Lehigh Lube, but it will surprise many people to find out how accurate a little slug can be in the slow twist. And, you can push it much faster than the "heavy" conicals, without all the recoil and wiping associated with the big heavy conicals.
I don't have a Lee mould for the REAL in .58 cal that I can call my own. I have used my son in law's, but that was several years back when I first got the 1861. and was having problems understanding all that was happening. This thing drove me crazy when I first got it, all it wanted to shoot was RB and Patch and I was changing too many variables at once to get a grip on it.
I suppose the REAL would perform just as well as the Rapine HB, although it is a SB, I will have to cast some more, or even better....steal some, already cast, from my son in law,
........and give them an "accuracy" test side by side. I have been very impressed with all the other REAL's over the years...once I learned how to shoot them.Just my thoughts.
Respectfully, Russ
Guest
When I had the .58 Hawken with a 66" twist, I bought the Lyman #57730 then took the handle off the plunger, turned the plunger down to make a thicker base, as well as making up brackets to allow making different weights of bullets. The bullet dia. was identical to the plunger dia., so I needed only to have a set-up which restricted the depth of the plunger in the mould. Due to the thicker skirt, the lightest I could case was 610gr., however the bes shooting wass at 675gr. using 150gr. 2F GOEX and 165gr. 2F GOEX. I must add here, this was a 1 1/8" barrel, with no deep dovetails or screw holes.
: The 165gr. charge gave 1,325fps for 2,605 ft.lb. of theoretical energy.
; The 150gr. charge gave 1,250fps for 2,342 ft.lb. of theoretical energy. Becasue these are pretty much solids, I worked out the KO for them at 72.8 and 77.2. The KO, or knock-out value for a 140gr. 2F load with #575312OS at 1,401 fps. is almost 25% less at 58.03. I do believe that's a considerble difference. Recoil is ifferent as well.
: Incidently, the 140gr. 2F GOX is listed for the 32' barel on a Lyman Zouave - how they equate to other's I don't know, but the rprssure is listed by Lyman as 9,900LUP. It is listed as maximum for their Zouave. 140gr. 2F is also listed as maximum for the #57730 at 580gr. weight for another 9,900LUP at 1,252fps, same as I got with 10gr. more powder in my 32" barrel with the 675gr. slug.
; The most accurate bullet I used was the Lyamn #575312 Old Style, which was the 460gr. minnie for the Cavalry pistol/carbine. I turned th eplunger for a thicker skirt on that one as well, bringing the weight up to 480gr. It was quite short and that's the reason it shot as well as it did, however Round Balls were more accurate in both Zouave and custom Hawken.
: The 165gr. charge gave 1,325fps for 2,605 ft.lb. of theoretical energy.
; The 150gr. charge gave 1,250fps for 2,342 ft.lb. of theoretical energy. Becasue these are pretty much solids, I worked out the KO for them at 72.8 and 77.2. The KO, or knock-out value for a 140gr. 2F load with #575312OS at 1,401 fps. is almost 25% less at 58.03. I do believe that's a considerble difference. Recoil is ifferent as well.
: Incidently, the 140gr. 2F GOX is listed for the 32' barel on a Lyman Zouave - how they equate to other's I don't know, but the rprssure is listed by Lyman as 9,900LUP. It is listed as maximum for their Zouave. 140gr. 2F is also listed as maximum for the #57730 at 580gr. weight for another 9,900LUP at 1,252fps, same as I got with 10gr. more powder in my 32" barrel with the 675gr. slug.
; The most accurate bullet I used was the Lyamn #575312 Old Style, which was the 460gr. minnie for the Cavalry pistol/carbine. I turned th eplunger for a thicker skirt on that one as well, bringing the weight up to 480gr. It was quite short and that's the reason it shot as well as it did, however Round Balls were more accurate in both Zouave and custom Hawken.
Well, I did some shooting the other day and figured out that it does shoot better with 2f rather than 3f. At 100 yds I got a 5" group shooting from the shoulder. However it does shoot about 6" high consistantly, so do I file the notch in the rear sight down a little?
Guest
The top of the sight should be reduced in height as well, instead of merely deepening the notch. Holding 'somewhere' below the top of the sight won't promote small groups or close shooting. You will need a flat double-cut bastard file along with a small 3 cornered file for the notch.
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