.62 caliber loads

[lasmail]

Recently I had a Fusil DeChasse made in a .62 caliber bore. Anyone have info on good powder loads and shot size for turkey?

 

[Russianblood]

Working up a Turkey load in a cylinder bore musket is going to take a lot of work (trial and error) at the patterning board. What works for one gun may not work for another. You can start with 70gr FFFg and 90gr volume of shot and work it from there.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I like to use #5 shot.But many use #6. If you limit the shots to 35 yds and under, you should have enough pellets on target with either to kill a turkey. The #5 carry a little more energy further, and I just add a little more shot to get the same number of pellets in a pattern.I think the 70 Grains of FFg, and 90 grains volume of shot is okay. You can probably go up to 110 grains by volume for the shot, and fill the pattern better, particularly if you are shooting an open bore gun( no choke).

 

What Russianblood said, as far as a starting load. Shot size should generally be 4's, 5's or 6's for turkey, or a mix of these. Some people like to make combo loads, and think it's better, I just prefer to keep it simple and use 90 gr. of #5 shot with 70 gr of FFFG. It gives me a good pattern out to 25+ yards, and will go thru a steel 303 can at that range, which means it should go thru a Turkeys neck at that range also, unless he has body armor on :haha: You definately need some range time to see what your gun likes. I have two Centermark fusils and they each like slightly different loads, so the only way of being sure is range time with a patterning board. That's my two pence worth. Bill

 

Also I would try different wad configurations when working up your best pattern. Doesn't have to be too complicated, but I found my best pattern was 70 Gr. of FFFg, over powder card, half of a fiber wad,(about 1/4 inch thick) smeared with Stumpy's Moosesnot, another over powder card 90 gr. of copperplated #5 shot, and then an overshot card. Prime with FFFg as I only carry a small horn when hunting, and pre-measured containers of shot I can carry in a pocket. Bill

 

[Mike Brooks]

Don't be afraid to shoot upwards near 1 5/8 Oz or better of shot. Just make sure you've got enough powder to get it going fast enough to kill. You'll know when you have enough, it can get pretty uncomfortable to pattern after a while. :haha:

 

[paulvallandigham]

This is where I disagree with Mr. Brooks. If you read the Lyman Shotshell reloading manual, you will find that all that extra velocity that bangs your shoulder around at the firing line is lost is the first 20 yds. Killing comes from using larger shot, so that down range energy is sufficient to penetrate skin and bone. That is why I like #5 shot, better than #6. It just kills better. If your bird comes inside 25 yds, it probably doesn't matter what you load, or what velocity it leaves the muzzle. You will kill the bird. Its when you can't coax that darn bird into that sure kill range that you need a little help from pellet size. At 35 yds, with an open cylinder barrel, that pattern is going to be pretty thin. The large pellet has the energy to kill, if it hits the head or neck. If it hits the chest, it still will penetrate to the heart and lungs, if it is in the right place, at the right angle, etc. And, of course, documented cases exist where turkeys have been killed well past 60 yds with an open cylinder gun barrel. I know of a pheasant killed at a paced 80 yds with one pellet to the head, but we calculated that the shot pattern was about 12 feet in diameter at that yardage, and that shot has to be the closest embodiment of sheer LUCK as any shot made.

Do your work on the range, and try different wad combinations. You have been given good stuff here, and you are going to find a combination that works in that gun. I just don't recommend teeth rattling " Magnum " loads in BP shotguns, or fusils, or in modern guns either. The data just doesn't justify using them

 

[Mike Brooks]

So who said I use little sized shot? I prefer #4's , that's why I pump up the load, to fill in the pattern with more shot. I don't have or care to read anything Lyman writes relating to shot shells. For flintlock muzlleloading shot guns intended for turkey hunting I use what works best after days spent on the pattern board. I don't care much for recoil, but I will endure a good wallup for extra killing distance and a superior pattern.
What you need to leave behind is modern thinking about shotgun loads when you're shooting M/L shotguns. You are not limited by the volume of a shot shell. More is better up to a certain point in a M/L. That point is usually the recoil you're willing to recieve. :winking:
Now, that all being stated, I don't shoot these large loads at phesants, never found it needed. 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 oz in a 12 bore is plenty. I would consider larger loads than that for waterfowling. I formulate my loads for the game I'm hunting, and not all game is killed at the same distance.
One thing I will add is I ALWAYS use larger shot size than modern gunners do. To be honest I use #4's for almost everything I hunt, and lots of it! :haha:

 

[Swampman]

I use #4s on everything. I prefer 3f powder. How much, depend on the musket.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Use the #4's Mike, and let it be. It is obvious that you don't want to hear what I am saying, and your refusal to read the tables in the Lyman book indicates your unwillingness to look at the science. For the rest of the readers, the round pellet is very aerodynamically poor in flight, and sheds velocity like water off a duck's back. It doesn't matter how fast you push the shot out of the gun barrel, as soon as it hits the air, the brakes go on, and the pellet begins to slow drastically. Because the weight of an individual shot pellet is so small, it is difficult to push it, along with a couple of hundred other pellets, of similar size, out the barrel at a speed sufficient to maintain much velocity at any range. The Tables in Lyman Shotshell Handbook give the pellet velocity at the muzzle, 20, 40, and 60 yds, as well as the pellet energy at the same distances. I don't know how fast Mike's 1 5/8 oz load of #4 shot, over 80 Grains of FFg pr FFFg powder is. I have taken readings on some loads in my 12 ga. using lesser powder charges and 1 1/4 oz. of shot, and 1 1/2 oz. of shot, but not that particular load.

But, one glance at muzzle velocities and the velocity of that same load of shot at 20 yds. indicates that most of that extra velocity gained from adding powder disappears within the first 20 yds. The fact that in a muzzle loading shotgun, you can put more shot in the barrel than if you were loading a 12 gauage modern shotshell has nothing to do with the velocity you get when the load is fired out of your barrel. The more mass you try to push with a given powder charge, the slower that charge of powder is going to send it. And, greater mass equals greater recoil, all other things being equal. But the KILLING ENERGY( Foot pounds of Energy) is a function of the mass, or weight, of each pellet, and how many pellets hit the bird.

If you look at the pellet energy chart, The # 6 shot which our first poster is intending on using, shot at a representative 12 ga load of 3 dram equivalents and 1 1/8 oz shot for 1200 FPS has a pellet energy at the muzzle of 6.20 FT lbs. and at 20 yds, has only 3.49 ft. lbs. The #4 pellet that Mike shoots, assuming a 1200 fps muzzle velocity, has a muzzle pellet energy of 10.36 Ft. lbs., but at 20 yds, has only 6.29 Ft. lbs of energy.( Velocity for the two loads at 20 yds. are 900 fps, and 930 fps, respectively.) If you start Mikes load out at 1135 fps, it still has 895 fps of velocity at 20 yds. The load of #6 at 1135 fps. still has 860 fps. velocity at 20 yds.

Depending on your source, a turkey MAY need at least 3 hits in the neck or head area to insure a kill, or aabout 15 ft lbs of energy. ( You can get a really big argument about this issue, and I don't agree with this suggestion much myself.) If so, Mike's #4 shot load will easily dispatch a turkey. The 3 pellets of #6 shot at 20 yds may be a little shy, delivering only a total of 10.47 ft lbs. of energy at that range.

However, if you compare the number of pellets in an ounce and 5/8 of shot of #4, ( 221) to the same amount of #6( 396), you get almost twice the number of pellets in the load using the smaller shot, increasing the chance of getting 3 or more pellets on that turkey's neck or head for a clean kill. That is why it is so critical to spend the time at the patterning board.

Instead of drawing a circle on a sheet of paper, put up newspaper sheets( two pages) and staple up a paper plate in the middle. Use Krylon spray paint to give yourself an aiming point in the middle of the paper plate, and fire away. Its much easier to see that pellet count on the paper plate, and other than telling you how centered your pattern is, the shot that hits the newspaper around the plate does not tell you much that is important to killing a bird. If you have a big hole in the middle of your pattern, you are not going to have much of a chance at doing more than wounding a bird. Fix the pattern and rely on the shot in the center of the pattern to kill your bird.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I don't know how fast Mike's 1 5/8 oz load of #4 shot, over 80 Grains of FFg pr FFFg powder is.

Where did you read I use that load? 80 gr. is a squib load for that much shot. :shake:
You may not realise it, but you're supporting my loading methods. #4's are superior in killing power and distance over # 6's. But, there are less #4 pellets than #6 pellets in any given equal load. So if you box yourself in with modern shot shell thinking you'll never achieve maximum performance from your M/L shotgun.
So, to achieve superior patterns with #4's you up the shot volume so you throw a greater number of pellets per load and of course up the powder right along with it to keep the velocity up and there fore increase the killing distance.
here's the proven results with my methods, and you're not likely to find these load in Lymans book of modern shot shell loads. :haha:
Let me fist state, I'm a professional and I take no responsibility for your health if you decide to use my methods. In other words, if this breaks your nose , or your gun, you're on your own.
Guns I have built have killed turkeys out to 50 yards (paced off). :shocked2:
The gun was an English flint wild fowling gun (built by me of course) with a 50" 10 bore Getz barrel with .045 Jug choke. The load was 140 gr of 3fff and 2 5/8 oz of plated 4's. This load will take turkey heads OFF at any distance under 25 yards and kill to probably 60 yards. If you're going to get your bird mounted, you better make sure it's at least 40 yards out before you pull the trigger, otherwise it may be to tore up to mount.
I might also suggest you're not leaning against a tree when you touch that load off.... :haha:
Now, I've never tried these big loads in cap guns and wouldn't recommend them. I've always felt comfortable with these big loads in flint guns because of the natural pressure relief valve that the vent liner provides. Nor would I try these loads in these cheap guns coming out of india.
In other words, make sure you have a QUALITY barrel and the barrel is properly bedded into the stock and you'll also want to be certain the grain structure in the wrist is going the proper direction so it doesn't shear with the recoil. :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

OOOPPPS. I read now that this thread was started looking for 20 bore loads. My theories still hold true for 20 bores too, you just scale the volume back a bit. :winking:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I think we all agree there is not much to be gained by trying to push shot loads too fast, but it is also possible to "under-do" things. The old standard equal volume load is still a good starting point. Recently it seems the practice is to tip the balance in favor of more shot than powder and that will tighten patterns and still maintain reasonable velocity up to a point, but taken to extremes penetration suffers.
The equal volume loads produce a velocity of only about 1000-1100 fps and that is slow by modern shotshell standards. Any increase in the shot load takes the velocity downward from there. I've seen some recommended loads such as 70 grains powder to 120 grains volume of shot. That would be a powder to shot ratio of 1 to 1.7 and I doubt such an unbalanced load would reach 800 fps at the muzzle. The 1100 fps load is still doing close to 900 at 20 yards, so the unbalanced load is like giving away the first 20 yards!
Yes you can go up in shot size to gain penetration but it takes 1 5/8 oz of #4's to equal the pellet count of one ounce of #6's which would be an equal volume to the 70 grains of powder. So this becomes like a dog chasing its' tail. You increase the pellet size to offset the reduced velocity, then you have to increase the shot volume to get the pellet count back, but that further reduces the velocity. Might as well stick with the equal volume of #6's and save your shoulder!
This was pretty well worked out in the 19th century. Loads such as 2 3/4 drams powder to 1 ounce shot or 3 1/4 drams to 1 1/4 oz became standard because they worked, with a good balance of velocity and pellet count. I expect it is OK to tip the balance slightly in favor of more shot but I'd not go much beyond a 3 to 4 ratio of powder to shot by volume measure. :yakyak:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mr. Brooks: I am not questioning your shooting ability, or your expertise as a hunter, or as a gun builder. You still DON'T tell us the velocity of any of the loads you talk about. Why is that???

The reason you can kill a turkey at 50 yds. is because you are using #4 shot, and willing to stand the brutal recoil of that heavy charge of shot, over that equally heavy charge of powder. But if you can tell me the velocity of that load at the muzzle, the charts in the Lyman book- which are not keyed to any shot shell- are therefore very useful to understand the relationship between velocity, pellet energy, ( also time of flight and trajectory) regardless of whether you shoot modern hulls, or make your own in a muzzle loading shotgun.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

The reason you can kill a turkey at 50 yds. is because you are using #4 shot, and willing to stand the brutal recoil of that heavy charge of shot, over that equally heavy charge of powder.

And he has a serious choke in that 10 bore. Trying to stretch the range of a cylinder bore can be a real exercise in futility. One may think that if I have a good pattern at 20 yards, then I'll need 50% more pellets to reach 30 yards, right? Wrong, you'd need 225% more because the area of your pattern spread will be 225% greater.
With a choke bore the pattern is much thicker in the center and that center can still hold adequate density to double the range of a cylinder bore. Of course, putting that tight center on a flying bird can be a bit of a challenge. :grin:

 

[Mike Brooks]

So this becomes like a dog chasing its' tail. You increase the pellet size to offset the reduced velocity, then you have to increase the shot volume to get the pellet count back, but that further reduces the velocity.

That's why you increase the powder volume.

This was pretty well worked out in the 19th century. Loads such as 2 3/4 drams powder to 1 ounce shot or 3 1/4 drams to 1 1/4 oz became standard because they worked, with a good balance of velocity and pellet count. I expect it is OK to tip the balance slightly in favor of more shot but I'd not go much beyond a 3 to 4 ratio of powder to shot by volume measure.

Now we're back to "shot shell thinking" , which isn't relevant to a M/L shotguns capability. With a M/L you're not limited by the capacity of the shell. The sky is the limit up to a reasonable degree. That's what's so cool about M/L shotguns! :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Mr. Brooks: I am not questioning your shooting ability, or your expertise as a hunter, or as a gun builder.

I know you're not, and I'm not taking offence. I understand modern shotshell technology as I'm an avid black powder cartridge skeet and sporting clays shooter. I just personally don't think the same rules of what is considered a "normal" load applies to a M/L gun.

You still DON'T tell us the velocity of any of the loads you talk about. Why is that???

Because I don't have one of those gizmos that measures the speed! :haha: I build M/L guns for a living, and there are many more priorities for my meager funds than a chrongraph. (is that the name?....I wanted to call it a Velocipede at fist..... :youcrazy: ). I've never found I needed to measure the velocity of any M/L gun, rifle or fowler to get good preformance from it. I've always found a good measure of common sense and good results a good guide for working up a killing load.

The reason you can kill a turkey at 50 yds. is because you are using #4 shot, and willing to stand the brutal recoil of that heavy charge of shot, over that equally heavy charge of powder. But if you can tell me the velocity of that load at the muzzle, the charts in the Lyman book- which are not keyed to any shot shell- are therefore very useful to understand the relationship between velocity, pellet energy, ( also time of flight and trajectory) regardless of whether you shoot modern hulls, or make your own in a muzzle loading shotgun.

A dead turkey is a dead turkey. :winking: The gun and load I'm describing , flint, 50" 10 bore
with .045 jug with 140gr of powder and 2 5/8 OZ shot is a turkey killing beast. It has no other practical purpose. If I were going to build a gun specifically for turkey hunting , this would be the gun. I have built several for avid turkey hunters and havn't had a disapointed customer yet.
The fellow who turned me on to this type of "turkey slayer" is an avid turkey hunter and hunts turkey in 8 states. I must admit, that he did all of the ground work on these loads...it was a real eye opener for me to discover what tremendous potential a big flint fowling gun has. I'm sure this guy used a chronogragh on occasion when working up these loads. I don't know for sure. I built this guy 5 guns of different guages, all with large amounts of jug choke. The last one I built for him was a 20 bore with .035 jug and a 40" barrel. I patterned that one for him just to see where it shot, as I deliverd it to him the day before turkey season..... :redface: ...anyway I was loading 1 3/8 , equal volume of powder and shot and it would put ALL of the pellets in an 18" circle at 20 to 25 yards. I think all I had on hand at the time was 7 1/2's. :yakyak: Anyway, my
point is, the ability to shoot large shot charges with enough powder to keep the velocity up and a bunch of jug choke to keep a dense pattern will kill turkeys for you quite a ways out. :thumbsup:
Here's the 20 bore I was refering to. The owner thought with the proper load this 20 bore had the capability to consistantly kill out to about 40 yards.

 

[Swampman]

I never can understand making this so complicated. When squirrel hunting I do measure the powder but I just dump a handful of shot down the barrel on the move. #4s kill them instantly. If in doubt, I add more shot. Turkeys are harder to kill that's for sure.

I'd take Mike's work on the smoothbore shooting. He's good at it.

 

[Itegorm]

Here's my take on the load question. All I currently have as far as muzzleloading smoothbores are 20 bore guns. The load I normally use 60-65 grains of fffg powder (I have way fewer fouling issues with fffg than ffg) and 90-100 grains by volume of shot. I typically wad with leaves, tow, paper, scrap wool, etc rather than cards and cussion wads. As for shot sizes I like large shot as a rule (#2 is my personal favorite but #4,5 and 6 do just fine for most applications). I also play around a bit with drip shaped shot, cylinder shaped shot and cube shot and have had very good luck with them as well (especially the drip shaped shot on our cat sized squirrels here). The important thing to remmember is that no matter what load you use or what thinking you go by to get to it, you are going to have to play around with it a bit to get to a load that patterns acceptably out of your gun (personally the ones I shoot like differnt loads for best performance) and that punch hard enough (I like the old tin can test, if it punches through the can it will do it on game). So play around with a few loads and have fun shooting your new gun.

 

[lasmail]

I have been gathering "good stuff" from you all. I do see the variances in thinking. Not that this is wrong,but, it shows the many different but workable ways of thought when using a smoothbore. I am leaning towards #5 shot and hornet nest material for the "wads" and I hope to have my 20 gauge, .62 cal.worked up for this fall. I use my Palyseski 50 cal.(Old Jacob- in honor of Delaware war chief Captain Jacobs of Kittanning) inclusively for deer, having taken at least 38 deer with it. I have taken very close to 50 turkeys, but, with a 12 gauge pump. I have never lost a bird yet. This is why I am seeking feedback. I want good info. and a want to keep my "no cripple" record intact. Thanks to all. I'll listen to more if you have additional info.