.75 cal power

[stalkerhawk]

Dan why the 95 over the 72 I'm told the powder charges for the 95 will be much larger and more recoil.the barrel I'm getting is 36 in.long rifled and .75 cal.If I can use smaller loads in the 72 with less recoil to get good accuracy what benifit would the 95 have.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you want to know what the recoil is going to feel like, go out and shoot heavy modern shotguns with 12 gauge slugs. If you can find a 10 gauge shotgun to shoot slugs out of, better yet. A box of 5 shots should be sufficient to let you know what you are getting into. Try to find the heaviest gun you can to shoot these shell. I once fired a single barrel 10 gauge with slugs that weighed only about 6 lbs. It was brutal! I hit where I aimed, but after a couple of shots I handed the gun back to the owner with my thanks, and went back to my .50 caliber rifle.

Using the slower rate of twist will give you greater flexibility with your powder charges when shooting a RB load. I doubt that you are going to be able to measure the difference between a barrel with a 1:72 ROT, and a 1:95 ROT. Remember, you are firing a ball that is 3/4 " in diameter. Its going to destroy huge about of tissue, no matter where it strikes an animal. Its going to cause the animal to go into shock quickly because of the sudden drop in blood pressure. There will be no need to worry about whether the ball is hitting 1/4" closer to your POA or not. The biggest problem you will have is trying to shoot those heavy balls at ranges over 100 yards. I simply don't recommend you do so. Stick with the 80 grain charges and keep your shots under 75 yards.

 

[Dphar]

Dan why the 95 over the 72 I'm told the powder charges for the 95 will be much larger and more recoil.the barrel I'm getting is 36 in.long rifled and .75 cal.If I can use smaller loads in the 72 with less recoil to get good accuracy what benifit would the 95 have.

You can use a 72 and it will likely work OK. But 70-72 will work with much smaller balls than 75.
My thoughts are that the 75 ball has a lot of inertia and its not gonna want to spin up fast under acceleration. But I could be wrong.
If you know of someone actually shooting a 72 twist 75 caliber they could be of help.
You also want VERY narrow lands and really wide grooves since the 75 has a LOT of circumference to compress when loading and wide lands will load hard.
I had a 95" twist that used a .662 ball but the bore dimension and finish was so inconsistent that accuracy would have been impossible with any twist.

Dan

 

[J.D.]

With the size animals you would be shooting knock down is not going to be greatly improved with extra powder. Find a load that works and get away from the modern mind set that says more powder is always better.
Deer are notoriously hard to stop no matter what you shoot them with so do not expect them to just fall over when shot. Speaking of western Mule deer and good sized WTs here.

So don't get puckered if some run off with the .75. EVERY deer will react differently.

The few deer killed with my bess have responded to that big ball by running 30-50 yards before piling up. That big ball makes a biiigg hole, but that doesn't mean that it will knock game off their feet, on the spot.

Find a load that shoots flat enough to 100. Bullet within 3-4" of line of sight to 100 is fine for deer. Probably dead on at 60-70 will work great.
Shoot the gun enough to get comfortable with it and understand how to hit stuff with it then go hunting.

Dan

Yup. A point about shooting black powder that hasn't been mentioned is that after a certain point, excess powder is blown out of the barrel, with the result of heavy fouling, increased recoil, and a change in the report.

Find an accurate load, then work up, in 10 gr increments, until the load becomes punishing, or begins to foul badly. At that point, accuracy will fall off, recoil will increase, and if you are paying attention, the sound of the report will change. Back off of the charge until accuracy returns. That is your max effective load.
Never having shot a 75 cal rifle, that load might be pretty heavy.

If you can shoot that max load well, use it for hunting, but don't expect it to knock game animals off of their feet.

 

[stalkerhawk]

So the recoil is about what a 12 ga. slug is.I think I'm alright then. I've fired allot a 3 1/2 in. mag slugs out of my 12 ga. goofing around.So this is my understanding. If I have the barrel rifled in a 1 in 72 twist my charges will be less so recoil will be lighter and I'll have the same killing power. The 1 in 95 twist will need heavy loads to shoot well which increases recoil,but doesn't give me any more killing power,knock down power,or whompability.Right? and we are talking with in a 100 yrds. is the trajectory any different?

 

[JackAubrey]

Just for fun I fired my Brown Bess at a 55 gallon steel drum that sat approximately 25 yards from me.I was firing 80 grains of 2f Goex under a paper patched .735 ball.The ball easily penetrated the near side producing s rather impressive hole. What surprised me was the ball exited the opposite side of the barrel tearing a hole roughly 1.25 inches across.Looking about I noticed a rip near the base of an oak tree about 4 inches long and about 1/4 inch deep.The tree was about five feet beyond the barrel.I hoped to find the spent ball but no joy there. I really should post pictures,if I can think about it and I do apologize for not giving technical data,I was just informally plinking.All in all,it did leave one with a healthy respect for the round.It also shows that the scene in "Master and commander" where the good doctor is shot in the lower abdomen with a Brown Bess is pure Hollywood.The 55 gallon drum was a more resistant target that human flesh and should the holes in the doctor come anywhere near replicating the holes produced in the barrel,our dear doctor would have been buried at sea shortly after being shot.Just a thought.Best regards,JA

 

[BS]

If I were contemplating taking an African trip with thoughts of the Big Five on my mind I would want hard cast balls and at least a 10 bore and preferably an 8 bore. Read some of Sir Samuel Baker's writings. They are a real eye opener as to calibers used and their ability to handle dangerous game.

runnball, the biggest problem that I have read about is, the expansion and lack of penetration of soft lead.......even in the 8 bore size.....I would use hard lead......for penetration.

...............

a note to me, from a Northern Brother:
"Loads in the .75 cal had to be reduced down to 125FF to keep a ball from completely passing thru moose, broadside"

Not sure of the distance, but the ball would be just under the skin on the far side.

I don't have a 75 cal, but my .73 [550grain]is overkill for deer sized critters.......can't tell the difference between the ones shot with 175FF or 125FF.......quartering shots waste meat, and don't shoot high..........sighted in at 75yd....the longest shot has been 40 yds.

One nice thing about big round balls, is that you should be able to break both front legs and still have an exit hole.

Get one of those 3 leaf "express" rear sight for shooting long distance..........or get closer. :grin:

 

[Dav James]

Have just had a chance to read through the thread,must say the loads in the light guns must ring some bells, my 8bore is spun 1x144" and am throwing a 900 hard cast ahead of 215FFG,was the load I worked up for Africa and close plains game, never got there as of yet but on hogs it just plows them under, worked up a nice load of 113FFG and a 1100 soft cast ball,POA in my gun is just about close enough for goverment work at 75 meters.Tried a few shots at 100 meters but seems a waste with the big bore, mine weighs in at 13LBS , recoil isn't to bad.

 

[Dphar]

If I were contemplating taking an African trip with thoughts of the Big Five on my mind I would want hard cast balls and at least a 10 bore and preferably an 8 bore. Read some of Sir Samuel Baker's writings. They are a real eye opener as to calibers used and their ability to handle dangerous game.

runnball, the biggest problem that I have read about is, the expansion and lack of penetration of soft lead.......even in the 8 bore size.....I would use hard lead......for penetration.

...............

a note to me, from a Northern Brother:
"Loads in the .75 cal had to be reduced down to 125FF to keep a ball from completely passing thru moose, broadside"

Not sure of the distance, but the ball would be just under the skin on the far side.

I don't have a 75 cal, but my .73 [550grain]is overkill for deer sized critters.......can't tell the difference between the ones shot with 175FF or 125FF.......quartering shots waste meat, and don't shoot high..........sighted in at 75yd....the longest shot has been 40 yds.

One nice thing about big round balls, is that you should be able to break both front legs and still have an exit hole.

Get one of those 3 leaf "express" rear sight for shooting long distance..........or get closer. :grin:

Hard lead was the standard in Africa for Cape Buffalo and larger game. Penetration just is not good enough with pure lead. Expansion is not important when the ball is large.
Turner Kirkland shot an African Elephant with a 4 bore with pure lead and IIRC got about 20" of penetration with a lot of expansion.
Insufficient for the purpose. This is why all the old hunters used hardened lead for heavy game.
My 16 bore with pure lead will give about 30" of penetration on Mule Deer. This at about 40 yards. Its overkill for deer also but too small for larger stuff in Africa, pure lead or otherwise.
Personally I would use W-W in this rifle on Brown/large G. bear and AK moose.

Dan

Front leg and shoulder of 57" spread moose. Killed (not by me) near Delta Jct, AK.
Note the size of the bones. Ribs are big too.

 

[stalkerhawk]

were can I get hardcast round balls whats in them that makes them harder?

 

[Mike Brooks]

Add tin.

 

[KHickam]

Geez, boys how dead is dead! What is this modern magnumizing of a blackpowder rifle/smoothbore driven by?

Now, I realize some of you might be going after dangerous african game someday - but crickey!

I have no experience with a .75 on big game - although, I have owned one in the past - but I can tell you that there is plenty of whoop ass in it for any North American big game.

I personally have shot a pretty nice sized elk with a .62 and the ball fully penetrated and whistled out the other side - same results with a 250 lb hog here in TX - and those were with good loads - the hog was 80 grs and a patched .600 Rb at distances of 15-20 yds and about 75 yds.

There are statements on this forum of a 62 caliber fully penetrating a cow buffalo.

Power is fine, but this is becoming a bit crazy.

 

[Dphar]

were can I get hardcast round balls whats in them that makes them harder?

The best way is to cast your own.
The best way is to use wheel weights. They are likely harder than a tin:lead alloy, which tops out at about 1:16-1:14 tin:lead, and can be made very hard by quenching. Tin is also expensive.
If this is not something you want to do contact a custom caster and have them cast you some from a harder alloy.
IF you cast W-W be aware that zinc in being used for this now. So sort them before melting. I have not run into this yet but the next batch I get will be whacked with a hammer if I cannot find any other way to ID the zinc.

Dan

 

[stalkerhawk]

Isn't tin lighter than lead? So would that make the ball lighter?,but harder.I'd like to state again this is a rifle. Not a smooth bore.I'm just curious about the potentinal of this rifle.What it might be able to do.I'm still unsure of the twist rate.All things even and recoil aside it looks like the 1 in 95 twist with larger charges has more energy left at 100 yrds.than the 1 in 72 twist.This rifle will be used for alaskan brown bear,moose,and some african game.

 

[Dphar]

So the recoil is about what a 12 ga. slug is.I think I'm alright then. I've fired allot a 3 1/2 in. mag slugs out of my 12 ga. goofing around.So this is my understanding. If I have the barrel rifled in a 1 in 72 twist my charges will be less so recoil will be lighter and I'll have the same killing power. The 1 in 95 twist will need heavy loads to shoot well which increases recoil,but doesn't give me any more killing power,knock down power,or whompability.Right? and we are talking with in a 100 yrds. is the trajectory any different?

In equal weight guns, typical modern shotgun weight, the .75 ML will be intolerable at any velocity over 1200-1300.
Modern shotguns with smokeless powder recoil differently than a ML shooting a RB.
Muzzle energy to recoil energy? Add in 50-80% of the powder as part of the projectile weight.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

Geez, boys how dead is dead! What is this modern magnumizing of a blackpowder rifle/smoothbore driven by?

Now, I realize some of you might be going after dangerous african game someday - but crickey!

I have no experience with a .75 on big game - although, I have owned one in the past - but I can tell you that there is plenty of whoop ass in it for any North American big game.

I personally have shot a pretty nice sized elk with a .62 and the ball fully penetrated and whistled out the other side - same results with a 250 lb hog here in TX - and those were with good loads - the hog was 80 grs and a patched .600 Rb at distances of 15-20 yds and about 75 yds.

There are statements on this forum of a 62 caliber fully penetrating a cow buffalo.

Power is fine, but this is becoming a bit crazy.

Readers have to view the use of hardened lead in CONTEXT. First my 16 bore will shoot hard lead or soft INTERCHANGABLY. Lead is 80 cents+ a pound W-W is free. 16 balls to the pound. But I shoot lead for hunting since I hunt "soft" animals.

In the context of using hard lead round balls elk are not "big game". They are similar to the Red Deer. The English "deer stalking" rifles might be as small as 54 caliber and often 24 to 20 bore. These calibers are all considered too small for use in Africa or Asia. 12 bore was small for Africa and in India Forsythe tells us that the 16 bore is as small as anyone would use for dangerous game. He further stated that his 14 bore rifle (.69) with a "#15 ball" should shoot through an Indian Elephants head from side to side with 5 drams of powder.

Try shooting the elk at 15-20 yards and shoot though the heaviest part of the shoulders with the 20 bore ball at 1600+ at the muzzle. If you hit the bone it likely will not go through. Now double the size of the animal and think Eland. Or think Cape Buffalo which will stomp you to warm jello. Now ask if you want expansion or penetration. Also a hard round ball is more likely to track straight. Just like a solid from a 458 etc.
Most dangerous game shot with MLs was shot close. Many places in Africa shots at Elephant are under 20 yards. Solids are the norm regardless of the rifle used.
I, nor anyone else here, even HINTED that even a 50 caliber will not shoot through a deer or elk (though elk is iffy). I have shot completely through a grown mule deer buck at 140 steps with a 490 rb. I have shot through an antelope with a short barreled 50 cal belt pistol and 45 grains of powder at 20-25 yards. Anyone with experience KNOWS this.
For SOME uses hardened lead was the STANDARD historically.
I would not hesitate to shoot a deer or elk with W-W or pure lead with the 16 bore. Shot placement is the key.
In mentioning things like hardened lead in MLs I was attempting to perhaps inform readers here. I was not holding a gun to anyone's head to force them to use hardened lead. Nor did I infer that a Brown Bess would not shoot through a deer.
Velocities around 1600 fps are the break point for flat trajectories. Where I live the ranges are often long and hard to judge. 1600-1650 in the 16 bore and 1700-1900 in smaller bores allows me to hold center on a deer to about 120 yards. No need to hold over, no need for extra leaves in the sight. I am "zeroed" from 0 to 120-130 yards.
It makes HITTING EASIER, has little to do with killing power.

In days past hunters used to use 16-20 DRAMS of powder and a 4 ounce hardened ball on Elephant.
Read "A Hunters Wanderings in Africa" by Selous
Or some of Sir Samuel Bakers stuff. Baker's are down loadable from google books.

Dan

 

[stalkerhawk]

Dan thanks for the info.I'm still not sure I understand the relation between barrel twist and accurate loads.Allong with bullet velocity and energy.Am I better off going with a 1 in 72 twist with charges in the 85-140 grain range or the 1 in 95 twist with 160-210 grain range,and is there any differance in penetration between these loads if I use hard lead?

 

[stalkerhawk]

In equal weight guns, typical modern shotgun weight, the .75 ML will be intolerable at any velocity over 1200-1300.
Modern shotguns with smokeless powder recoil differently than a ML shooting a RB.
Muzzle energy to recoil energy? Add in 50-80% of the powder as part of the projectile weight.
Dan
So how fast would the charges I mentioned be going?


[/quote]

 

[paulvallandigham]

I guess one of the main reasons anyone buys an 8 gauge( "Bore") gun of any description is so they can shoot more powder. And, of course, Larger lead balls.

I don't understand any need to put a bigger hole completely through any animal so that you also put a bigger, DEEPER hole in the ground or trees behind the animal TOO!

I have a good friend who built his own 8 gauge Shotgun-- "cause"------ ( The only real excuse any Free American ever needs to have one, BTW) and the first time I saw it, he handed it to me and told me to shoot a clay target with it. I only knew it was a large caliber, but he didn't even tell me it was an 8 gauge, until after I called the target, and fired the shot. There was nothing in the air after the smoke cleared, and I was assured by bystanders that I had broken the clay.

He had put 6 or 8 drams of powder in the gun and 3 oz. of shot! We were shooting clays thrown by a simple trap machine, and I was no more than 20 yards from the clay when it broke.

There was NO NEED for so much shot, much less all that powder to break clay targets at that range.

Oh, the gun did have a memorable recoil!

I have not shot an 8 bore rifle. Unless I was heading to Africa to hunt Rhino, or Elephant, I can't think of any reason to have or shoot such a gun. I don't think, according to the Greenhill formulas, that you are going to see any difference shooting PRB in that gun, regardless of the two different Rate of Twist mentioned. The slightly faster ROT will stabilize big conical bullets better, but not that better.

8 bore, or 8 gauge means that a ball that diameter weights 2 ozs.- ( 16 oz. to the pound divided by 8 = 2 ozs.) That is an 875 grain Round Ball in weight. If its only going 900 fps. its still going all the way through the animal. I see absolutely NO need to be shooting such a heavy projectile at velocities that exceed the speed of sound. ( 1135 fps.)

Best Wishes with the new toy.

 

[Dphar]

In equal weight guns, typical modern shotgun weight, the .75 ML will be intolerable at any velocity over 1200-1300.
Modern shotguns with smokeless powder recoil differently than a ML shooting a RB.
Muzzle energy to recoil energy? Add in 50-80% of the powder as part of the projectile weight.
Dan
So how fast would the charges I mentioned be going?

You have to make the gun and shoot it to know.
But velocities under 1600 make any rifle far less useful unless hunting from a tree stand or ground blind. This is why balls over 20 or 16 are really silly for American use. They cannot be moved fast enough to provide a flat trajectory.

Dan