A Christmas Knife

[longcruise]

I m perfectly thrilled with this knife gifted to me by one of my Grandsons. He bought it out of a museum liquidation.

For me this is especially rewarding. He is 28 years old now and has been hunting, shooting, fishing and camping with me since he was 2 years old. It confirms for me that our times together have been valued by him.

Also delighted because I was on the verge of ordering a new blade for a skinner. I'll be making up a sheath for this in the next few days and it will be ready to enter it's new era of service.

 

[Loja man]

Very cool!! Can we see some more close ups of the handle? How it’s fastened? Where the blade goes into the handle? Measurements?

 

[longcruise]

Very cool!! Can we see some more close ups of the handle? How it’s fastened? Where the blade goes into the handle? Measurements?

Yes indeed but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

That is absolutely great ! Lucky grandpa !

Due to the age of that, it must truly must have been a knife before Christmas !

 

[user 48679]

Pretty good use for what looks like an old file, and thoughtful of your Grandson - don't cut yerself.....

 

[hanshi]

I like that knife and not just because of who gave it to you. That is one cool looking blade, and that handle!

 

[longcruise]

Here's a picture of the butt of the knife. You can see the end of the file tang and two slivers of metal used as shims.

Here the other end of the handle. It was represented by the seller as attached with a pine pitch concoction. I think it could also be hide glue or heaven forbid, epoxy?

A couple more pictures of the handle.

And a couple more of the blade.

A little more analysis. The knife was represented as circa early 1800s. I have doubts about that. First off, the finish on the handle doesn't seem to have that much age on it. It also seems to be a modern finish. A poly or some kind of oil finish.

Next, the blade. Absolutely certainly made from a file. The metal is very hard. Possibly never tempered or if it was it was maybe not brought down as much as it should have been. Not built around a campfire for sure. Not likely to have been mtn fur trade era trade goods.

But the thing about the blade that has me wondering is the evolution of the steel required to make such a file What would be the earliest date possible for the file used to make the blade?

 

[Brokennock]

Bb

Cutler's resin maybe?
@LRB thoughts?

 

[longcruise]

Forgot the measurements

 

[Loja man]

Thanks for sharing the added info and pics on the knife!! Very cool!!

 

[SDSmlf]

But the thing about the blade that has me wondering is the evolution of the steel required to make such a file What would be the earliest date possible for the file used to make the blade?

Remember from my tool maker apprentice days being told steel files (Sheffield?) were around in the mid to late 1700s. Never personally researched or confirmed, but information was passed on to generations of apprentices.

 

[LRB]

Cutler's resin maybe?
@LRB thoughts?

In my opinion it would have to be cutlers resin or some form of pitch based glue. In my experience, hide glue does not hold up to heavy moisture very well. No doubt forged as the file teeth follow the curve, so it was probably heat treated hard on purpose. Most files in the 18th c. and early 19thc. were of wrought iron, hand cut teeth, and case hardened. I would think it to be possible, even probable that some were made from blister steel, maybe even Shear steel. some late 18th c., early 19th c. could possibly be made from cast steel. I don't know. Files were very precious previous to the mid 19th c., and were used, reused, and resharpened until impractical to do so. Knives made from files would not be real common but apparently did exist. A file of good steel would be worth more than a common knife blade, unless circumstances dictated a need, or there was a specific demand made for its use.

 

[Brokennock]

In my opinion it would have to be cutlers resin or some form of pitch based glue. In my experience, hide glue does not hold up to heavy moisture very well. No doubt forged as the file teeth follow the curve, so it was probably heat treated hard on purpose. Most files in the 18th c. and early 19thc. were of wrought iron, hand cut teeth, and case hardened. I would think it to be possible, even probable that some were made from blister steel, maybe even Shear steel. some late 18th c., early 19th c. could possibly be made from cast steel. I don't know. Files were very precious previous to the mid 19th c., and were used, reused, and resharpened until impractical to do so. Knives made from files would not be real common but apparently did exist. A file of good steel would be worth more than a common knife blade, unless circumstances dictated a need, or there was a demand made for its use.

Thanks.
People often talk about file knives in a context of, "they wouldn't have wasted anything, they would have repurposed that file."
Yeah, for as long as possible they would have "repurposed" it as another file. I'm no blacksmith but I can make something that cuts, slices, or stabs out of something. Heck, I spent an entire year dressing all fish and game with stone "blades," often just sharp flakes of handy shape.
But a file? A file I not only can not form, I certainly lack the tools and ability to harden and heat treat. How many people in Colonial or Early American times could?

 

[LRB]

If a file made from good steel, there should be no problem for a smith. What am I missing? If one has an anvil, forge, and hammer, there should be no problem. If you mean out in the wilderness it would be tough. That's why the town smith was usually the most important citizen and made decent money.

 

[Brokennock]

If a file made from good steel, there should be no problem for a smith. What am I missing? If one has an anvil, forge, and hammer, there should be no problem. If you mean out in the wilderness it would be tough. That's why the town smith was usually the most important citizen and made decent money.

Sorry, I was unclear. I was agreeing that files were precious,,, as files. And likely were not repurposed into knives all that often. A file being not only good steel, but far more difficult to make for average Joe than something to cut with.

 

[Tyler L]

Files are not particularly difficult to make. This guy has been working on a recreation of the Antikythera Mechanism for years, and he made a separate video on making files:

 

[SDSmlf]

Files are not particularly difficult to make. This guy has been working on a recreation of the Antikythera Mechanism for years, and he made a separate video on making files:

Files in the video are case hardened, totally different critter that steel with enough carbon in it that could be cut and shaped into a durable knife blade.

 

[Tyler L]

Files in the video are case hardened, totally different critter that steel with enough carbon in it that could be cut and shaped into a durable knife blade.

The case-hardening is just to show how the Antikythera builders could have done it. Making files from high-carbon steel is the same basic process prior to the heat treating.
http://www.hawleytoolcollection.com/uploads/PDF/How it was made - Files.pdf

 

[LRB]

The case-hardening is just to show how the Antikythera builders could have done it. Making files from high-carbon steel is the same basic process prior to the heat treating.
http://www.hawleytoolcollection.com/uploads/PDF/How it was made - Files.pdf

Thankyou for the info reference. Very interesting. I have occasionally wondered how hot lead could be before vaporization/boiling but never bothered to look it up. A led bath at 1750°F would do the job for a hardening quench, but it would have to have been dangerous to work around, in many ways.