A Conundrum

[TNGhost]

I brought this shotgun home in a trade for minor services rendered. It was termed a wall hanger buy those I got it from. Percussion 12 gauge, back action locks and what appear to be Damascus barrels. No marks I could find other than what I am guessing are proof marks on the underside of the barrels near the breach. Locks work, nipples seem in decent shape, stock has a patchbox inletted on the left side, and though dark from age the stock seems sound. The left barrel however has a large gouge/dent in its side about halfway up and a couple more lesser ones further out toward the muzzle, at which the barrels are very thin. Knowing the properties and caveats of Damascus steel in gun barrels I can see the wisdom in this being a wall hanger.

My initial thoughts were to cut the barrel off short of the first gouge, down where the barrels are much thicker, and make a Baker style cavalry sawed off out of it, but,... then I started to play with it a bit and handle it and it has to be one of the sveltest, sweetest handling shotguns of any type I have ever handled, so now, though I know it can't be used in the condition its in, I am hesitating in cutting the barrels down. What to do what to do.....
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[troy2000]

I'd be really hesitant about shooting an old Damascus-barreled gun, because corrosion over the years can infiltrate between the layers. One of my second cousins lost his left thumb and a couple of fingers, shooting an old Damascus barreled goose gun. Of course, he was shooting heavy modern reloads in it. But still...

If it's as sweet a gun as you say, I'd look into having the barrel drilled out and a liner inserted - if there's enough meat in the existing barrel. If there isn't, you could go with a liner that's a smaller gauge. Either way It won't be 'cost effective,' but the value of a gun isn't always calculated in dollars and cents.

 

[ppg1949]

Ditto on what Troy said. Even a light load in the good barrel may be to much. Bobbie Hoyt may be able to help. In any case liners could change the responsiveness of the gun. Thanks for sharing. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

The assessment of that shotgun by the people you bought it from was correct. I wouldn't shoot that gun under any circumstances.

 

[poker]

I think it’s some awful nice wall art! And nothing wrong with that at all, don’t take a chance shooting it. There’s better choices for that.

 

[hawkeye2]

Almost any gunsmith can remove the dent but it will always show from the outside. The real issue with a dent in a damascus barrel is that it may have broken the weld and I wouldn't trust it. The barrels have rust and it would have to be removed to asses them. Bobby Hoyt can reline them but I can tell you from experience and by looking at the wall thickness at the muzzle that they will be in a smaller bore and it will be a 20 gauge. They are simply too thin to bore out enough to take a 16 gauge liner. That will restore the gun to shooting condition but will destroy its handling. Shortening the barrels will help with handling and may get them back to where they are thick enough to bore out for a 16 gauge liner, as is it will be a 20. I had Bobby do a cartridge hammer double for me a couple of years back, same problem, had to go with 20. Both liners are choked and it cost $125/side but it put a tight gun back into shooting condition. They added enough weight that it wouldn't be a first choice gun for birds but it's still fun and you can hardly feel a dove load go off.

I agree with everyone above in that it isn't safe as is, strictly a wall hanger. Percussion doubles don't have a lot of value, monetary or collectable, so you wouldn't be out any to line it or cut it back (and line it). Good luck and let us know what you do with it.

 

[Rich]

I would see about having it lined down to a 16ga. Nice gun and would be plenty strong then.

 

[TNGhost]

A gunsmith I showed it to came to the same conclusion concerning the Damascus barrels, but said the bore inside was in decent condition, and upon a re-inspection after cutting it down to 12 inches or so said there may be enough integrity to fire it like that, so sawed off is likely the way I am going to go , then line if necessary.

Lots of historic info on shortened shotguns turned into cavalry weapons so there are some patterns out there to go by to make it historically correct. Just have to get myself past the emotional aspect of cutting into those barrels. I would have loved to run across it when it was in better shape. I really don't even have any idea of who by, or where or when it was manufactured.

Anyone have any idea as to the markings on the underside of the barrels (1st photo)?

 

[smo]

Nice find! The barrels do really look thin at the muzzle, and the dents would have too be removed...

I’m not sure about the makers marks, but Feltwad and a few others here will be able too assit you I’m sure.

If you can find the Maker, you might possibly find a set of barrels... out there in internet land.

How long are the barrels?

 

[TNGhost]

The barrels are about 28 inches and overall the gun is about 44" overall.

I am not so concerned about them being dents as I am about them being gouges in the Damascus, weakening it and possible allowing corrosion to intrude in the layers of steel.

 

[SDSmlf]

A gunsmith I showed it to came to the same conclusion concerning the Damascus barrels, but said the bore inside was in decent condition, and upon a re-inspection after cutting it down to 12 inches or so said there may be enough integrity to fire it

Nice piece of history. Question, at least in my opinion, is how to properly preserve it.

‘May be enough integrity to fire it’. Also means there may NOT be enough integrity to fire it. Why risk the gun and your body parts. If it were me. I’d either make it a wall hanger or have someone like Mr. Hoyt reline it, if I just had to fire it. Keep in mind they don’t make guns like this anymore. And as far as your body parts......

 

[Brokennock]

I'd post some pictures and ask some questions on the, double gun shop forum, before I started hacking into it to make a sawed off. Might even be able to source barrels of proper repair their.

 

[Mark Herman]

HANG IT UP !

 

[Pukka Bundook]

The marks appear to be Birmingham proof.

Most decent damascus or stub twist can be as strong as any other barrel, and too much bias is floating about these days, But!
These barrels look like they may be compromised.
I do not know if the damage shown is merely a dent, or an inclusion mark.
There is no danger from thin muzzles, as pressure is extremely low at that end. It also depends how far from the muzzle the damage is.
If (as I Think) it is just in front of the foreend, it is not in a good place, as that is where the hand will be.
Lining or sleeving will ruin the handling qualities though, I'm afraid.

 

[Treestalker]

I agree with those that say don't shoot it. Too dangerous and you would waste a lot of money rebuilding it. INSTEAD, spend your money on an excellent reproduction DB shotgun, and hang the original on the wall. You will still have the pleasure of shooting/hunting with that style of gun while preserving a piece of Americana for future generations. For a closer reproduction, have a quality BP gunsmith inlet a suitable patch box on your new gun. And everybody wins!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Treestalker,

I'd agree, if you could get a high-end reproduction that handled like an original.
Unfortunately this is not the case.

Old guns can be just as safe as new ones, if well made and maintained.
Most folk I know shoot only originals. I hav ebeen doing this for over 50 years and have yet to see any even horrific examples , let go in use.
This is Not to say I advocate using horrific examples though!!

Best regards,
Richard.

 

[smoothshooter]

Nice find! The barrels do really look thin at the muzzle, and the dents would have too be removed...

I’m not sure about the makers marks, but Feltwad and a few others here will be able too assit you I’m sure.

If you can find the Maker, you might possibly find a set of barrels... out there in internet land.

How long are the barrels?

The chances of finding another set of barrels that will fit is just about zero.
Even if some are found that are dimensionally close, just getting the hooked breeches to fit will cost much more than the gun is worth.

 

[hawkeye2]

+1 smoothshooter and if anyone does find a decent set of barrels they will probably be mounted on a decent stock & locks,

 

[smo]

My glass is ALWAYS 1/2 full !

 

[TNGhost]

The marks appear to be Birmingham proof.

Most decent damascus or stub twist can be as strong as any other barrel, and too much bias is floating about these days, But!
These barrels look like they may be compromised.
I do not know if the damage shown is merely a dent, or an inclusion mark.
There is no danger from thin muzzles, as pressure is extremely low at that end. It also depends how far from the muzzle the damage is.
If (as I Think) it is just in front of the foreend, it is not in a good place, as that is where the hand will be.
Lining or sleeving will ruin the handling qualities though, I'm afraid.

Thank you.

I agree the barrel is compromised at the point of that damage, and there are two, lesser dings further up towards the muzzle on the same barrel as well.

The dent/gouge has definitely disrupted the pattern of the metal and allowed corrosion to intrude, which is why I am concerned about shooting it as is. It is indeed just to the front of the tip of the fore end, by about 5 inches. The barrels back of that point are in good shape and if I cut it would allow me a barrel length of about 13" Shorter than most historical examples of martial cavalry double shotguns, but there are examples with barrels as short as 11 inches. Pedersoli's Baker has barrels of 11 1/4 inches, but I think they settles on that length purely because their Howda pistols already existed at that length and they just repurposed them. I think it is why it is in 20 gauge and not 12 as well.

I just hate to cut it as it was such a sweet little gun, and the right hand barrel is in good shape with no such damage, and I would not hesitate to shoot right hand barrel after remotely "proofing" it.

I have thought about lining the barrels to 20 gauge but I am not sure the investment required would be worth it. Whereas cutting it down would return it to a somewhat useful life at little or no investment.

Also of consideration to me is that I do have two other percussion doubles, another original, but heavier and clunkier with 30 inch barrels, and a CVA SXS 12 gauge, both of which I hunt with.