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A question about visual differences...

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roundball

Cannon
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A question about 'differences' between the design / looks of two rifles...and to simplify it, consider they're two longrifles built by the same builder, same quality wood, same caliber, same barrel, etc, etc...one is built as an Early Virginia, the other as an Early Lancaster.
What would be some of the obvious differences to the eye...IE: Lancasters seem to have a toe-plate where Early Virginias do not, and so on...
 
"Early Virginia" now means guns and kits marketed as early Virginia rifles, and "Early Lancaster" now means guns and kits now marketed as early Lancaster rifles. Since they did not build guns to a pattern back in the day, there was a huge amount of variability in rifles built, for example, in Lancaster county, say 1770-1780, if that's the timeframe we're looking at. The same would be true in virginia, although I'd expect even more variations across a whole colony/state than in a single county.

In Lancaster during that period a great many rifles were in the style of Dickert, roughly, and would have a buttplate close to 2" wide and 5" tall, a triangular shaped buttstock, a sliding wooden patchbox or a brass box with a daisy finial. Carving would consist of a large C-scroll opening toward the toeline and another smaller one atop that.

Here's an original Dickert that is somewhat later, probably 1800-1810.


Dickert001.jpg


Dickert004.jpg


Dickert003.jpg


Dickert002.jpg


Dickert006.jpg


Dickert012.jpg


Dickert007.jpg


Dickert015.jpg


But there was great variability, and a Lancaster rifle by Fondersmith or Newcomer would have entirely different carving and details.

In general a Virginia rifle of the same period would have a similar shaped buttstock, but with a different trigger guard, carving at the comb would be shell-like rather than foliage-like, and would be more likely to have a large English lock, whereas a Lancaster rifle would generally but not always have a Germanic lock.

The guns and kits offered by today's purveyors under these names are generic but could readily be built up to incorporate specific signatures that would make them more recognizable as related to guns made by this maker or that maker.
 
The best and most informative description I've read yet. If rb hadn't asked the question I would have.
 
That helps, thanks...
Incidentally, I have a rifle built as a Dickert by a fella in Michigan...has that 'daisy' type patch box with the push button release on top of the heel...

04301150calDickertCokeCans1Crop.jpg
 
Your question would have been a lot easier if you had asked the difference between a Reading, Buck, or Bedford and a Virginia.

As was mentioned, the Lancaster and the Virginia have a lot in common in their general stock shape.
 
I have been black powder shooting for forty five years, and only until recently taken the time to identify one school of gun making to another.
Sadly, I have missed a lot in my travels.
With the presence of this and other forums that educate us in the particulars of long rifles and fowlers, helps us know more, and be better in knowing what we are looking at.
Never stop learning!
Fred
 
Zonie said:
Your question would have been a lot easier if you had asked the difference between a Reading, Buck, or Bedford and a Virginia.

As was mentioned, the Lancaster and the Virginia have a lot in common in their general stock shape.

You missed the point...I specifically asked exactly the question I wanted to ask about Early Virginias and Early Lancasters...but thanks for suggesting I asked the wrong question.
:thumbsup:
 
The lack of any detail to connect the various "types" of guns to what they are said to be is the main issue now with the semi custom shop from what I have seen. Very few of the guns of any particular "type" or "School" have any of the defining features, carving, engraving and such to connect them to the originals we have to compare. Often the write ups are pretty far off also. most of these gun if showed to someone like Schumway or a simlar gun historian would not be able to be classified to a place of time and all to often the term early seems to automatical suggest the F&I period which very few of these guns are within a decade of but having said that they are well made quality guns. I think it would be a better plan to stay with plan wood and put that money into detail that would add to credibility to what the gun is supposed/claimed to be. It is a personal choice how close to an original one wants to be, but there is no reason to get upset if when asking about or showing pics of a gun when someone points out the facts about said gun from a historical viewpoint it could help others who may have a different level of gun in mind and does not have to be considered a slam and start a flame war about pc Nazis and the whole routine.I am glad there are those here who can offer such information and have had comments made about some of my guns I built or had a hand in building as to things that were "off" and it did not hurt at all. I looked at it as a learning process there is no reason to be defensive of or offended by of the truth as I see things.
 
roundball said:
A question about 'differences' between the design / looks of two rifles...and to simplify it, consider they're two longrifles built by the same builder, same quality wood, same caliber, same barrel, etc, etc...one is built as an Early Virginia, the other as an Early Lancaster.
What would be some of the obvious differences to the eye...IE: Lancasters seem to have a toe-plate where Early Virginias do not, and so on...
I'd help you out but you have my posts blocked so you can't read them. :rotf:
 
That's 'cause we been bad boys..... and tend to try and seperate fact from fancy at times.Don't know 'bout you, but I will live, even as sad as it is :shake:
 
tg said:
That's 'cause we been bad boys..... and tend to try and seperate fact from fancy at times.Don't know 'bout you, but I will live, even as sad as it is :shake:
A word of friendly caution might be in order. The title of Self-Appointed Arbiter of the Real Truth is a dangerous one, carries a lot of responsibility with it, because you are allowed no mistakes. I'm an old man, and I've never seen anyone, not a single one, who could carry the weight. I've lost track of the number who have tried.

Spence
 
Rich Pierce said:
Fine looking rifle there!
It seems pretty decent....wood is a plainer that others I have but all the doo-dads add a bit of character that helps it along...good hunting rifle, christened it last November.

A00211011150calDickert8Pointer.jpg


A-011811DickertRightFullCompleted.jpg


B-011811DickertLeftFullCompleted-1.jpg
 
With the cost of carving/engraving being what it is, few of us can swing it and have to work with what we have. I've thought about forgoing lock and even barrel just to have the correct stock. It would look strange but at least be HC/PC. :rotf:
 
Some would be surprised at how little it can take to put something identifiable with a style of school on a gun.The first step is to research what the details of said gun are and tis does not mean to just ask the vendor you are getting the gun from.But as stated there is nothing wrong with the generic guns one just does not have much to stand on when claiming a type or school if they choose to do so.
 
Pardon me for answering your question the way I did.

I answered it like I was talking to a friend.

I should have said

As your rifles do not have carving and are without a patchbox you won't see any significant differences between your Virgina rifle and a Lancaster.

If they are "correct", the Virginia will have an English style lock and the Lancaster will have a Germanic lock.
 
roundball said:
A question about 'differences' between the design / looks of two rifles...and to simplify it, consider they're two longrifles built by the same builder, same quality wood, same caliber, same barrel, etc, etc...one is built as an Early Virginia, the other as an Early Lancaster.
What would be some of the obvious differences to the eye...IE: Lancasters seem to have a toe-plate where Early Virginias do not, and so on...
It would really help to define what 'early" is and what virginia school you are comparing to before any conversation on the subject starts....of course since you have me blocked it's all irrelevant anyway. :haha: Always a good idea to block those that are capable of giving the most educated answers to your questions. :blah:
 
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