A question for the Historians

[Twice boom]

I'm looking for a picture or a painting that would show me of a loader (sorta like a speed loader) that might have been carried a field for upland hunting in Europe .
I believe the loaders were made out of some fancy wood and carried in loops on a belt .One side of the loader was for shot while the other side might have been to carried the premeasured powder and seperate pouch that was attached to the belt for wads....

Has anyone seen such a loader either in person or in a picture.
I'm very interested in making one ,but I like to keep with in the certain period as far as looks.

Thanking you in advance.
Twice B.

 

[dlemaster]

You may be looking for something called "The Twelve Apostles" that were used in the 17th century as I recall. I have a book with a picture, but I can't locate which book right off.

Regards, Dave

 

[Twice boom]

You could be right Dave . I assumed what i'm looking for was used in the 18th early 19th century.
Leave it to my dad to tell me what he used was something readily available in the 1940's Greece..... :hmm:

It would be much appreciated if you could find and post a picture.
Thanks a bunch.
Twice B.....

 

[Christiaan]

Now this is an interesting question. I Also like to see a pic. We like pics :shocked2:

 

[George Holton]

look up a picture of early firelock shooters . these were carried bandolier fashon

 

[hawkeye1755]

He Dave, here is a pic from the "The Twelve Apostles":

But that's more 17th century.Oh,i'm counting thirteen. :hmm: The term "twelf apostles" for the powder bottles, which is frequently referred to in modern secondary source literature, came into use only in more recent times. There is no single source during the thirty years war mentioning this term. The number of the powder charges with early 17. century musketeer bandoliers also was not limited to 12, but varied between 8 and 14.
:hatsoff:

 

[Twice boom]

Thank You Undertaker,and Dave.
That's what I was looking for, I think

Okay you guys, what followed along those lines post the 12 apostles.I KNOW I'M PUSHING IT :haha:
On another site someone had posted a belly belt with boxes to carry paper sheels and couple of pouches,I assume to care patches and round balls.I found that very interesting and I'm thinking to make one of those for my upland shooting.....Only mine will have wooden dowels much the like the 12 apostels that will carry the shot on one end and the powder on the other with its own little pouch on a belly belt.I jus gotta get a wood lathe.
If I can ever learn to post pictures I would like very much to share with you all a snake and powder horn from what I was told was a late 18th -early 19th century rig built with a harness that goes over both shoulders and a belt buckle on the front an rear.....
You guys are good. :thumbsup:
Thanks.
Twice B.

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu can buy an irish " snake " and bag from Track and several other suppliers. The snake is part of the shoulder strap, with an irish measure to use to take shot out of the snake to pour into your smoothie. The modern Irish measures have three levels of adjustment, although the exact amount of shot that each throws by weight is related to the size of shot used.

Even though wood is Light compared to other things, Its still a lot of weight to be hauling around in the field. I would not want to have 12 or 13 of the things banging against my ribs, waist, and groin in the field. Other opinions differ. That is what makes this world go around. Pre-measured shot and powder loads, if kept dry, are always a good way to go hunting, particularly in bad weather.

 

[Twice boom]

I already have that stuff.

I now use a a shell belt that can hold 25 cartridges of my own design, that also has loops made out of leather attached to a metal ring that I can hang 4 birds by their heads ..Keeps me level when hunting the chukar hill..... :grin:

I can't imagine the belt I intend to make being that much heavier than the one I already use.....Besides,it will free my shoulders from all but a gallon canteen of water for my dogs....Gotta have water when hunting Chukar.......

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't know how much shooting you get before you circle back to your car, but a small shot poucy that holds a half a pound of shot has never run out for me, except once at a dove hunt. I took the precaution of taking a jar with extra shot on that occasion. Carry that shot bag in a game pocket in your vest, and the weight is taken by your shoulder. Put a pint jar of juice or soup, or just water in the opposite pocket and you have a balance for the shot bag. You can buy them from several suppliers, or make your own. A wooden stopper will keep the shot in the bag if you fit it correctly.

 

[xxgrampa]

hey paul,

think twice boom is young. he can still climb hills with a large load.

not like some old goat soliciter whose name i will not mention. :grin:

tt.g

 

[xxgrampa]

hey undertaker,

that's a great picture. i think you are a good guy, no matter what those rascal bavarians say about you.. :grin:

..ttfn..grampa..

 

[Twice boom]

A great picture indeed and I just might make one to hang on the wall if not to hunt with.

No,Twice Boom is as old as the hills but still young in heart to think he still can..... :haha:

On a serious note.Paul, When I am able to hunt I travel to great distances from here In Indiana . Last year I traveled to Montana,ND,and N.M. This year God Willing I hope to find myself in Oregon from Oct - Middle of Dec chasing Chukar.
Granted , I wont be hunting strictly with M L. But I will do enough of it to satisfy my unexplainable need to do it. Heck I might get Crazy enough by then to make some period cloths to help with setting the mood.
15-20 shots on chukar when the birds are pleantiful is not unheard off for the mornings hunt.

The mornings hunt can take me 6-10 miles from the truck and why the great need for water for the dog.

The otherthing and I am sure you all have experienced this ,it's not always about getting it done,but getting it done in the manner you want it otherwise why do it with a muzzleloader eh?
Thanks guys ,you been great...
Twice Boom.

 

[hawkeye1755]

hey undertaker,
i think you are a good guy, no matter what those rascal bavarians say about you.. :grin:

What,mon dieu, :shocked2:

Those rascal bavarians slander over a North-Frisian?
I will have satisfaction.
To Arms Frisian brothers.It's a long way to the bavarian woods.
:hatsoff:

 

[dlemaster]

Undertaker
Thank You for the pictures!!
You seem to be able to come up with some great stuff. What an asset to this forum.

Regards, Dave

 

[hawkeye1755]

:redface: :redface:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Definitely have extra water for your dog. His nose has to be kept moist, as does his mouth, where he has many more square inches of scent receiving tissue, if he is going to do his job for you. On dry days, ( Not uncommon in the NW during the Fall) you need to flush his mouth out with a handful of water every 15 minutes or so, and then give him a break and water every hour or so. 6 miles would be very hard on a dog's feet, unless he has been conditioned before the season with long hunts and practices. Remember that the altitude makes the air thin for both you and the dog. Take it easy. No bird is worth a stroke or heart attack, and being that far away from your car such a medical incident will almost surely be fatal.

If you really expect to take 15-20 shots before you can return to your truck or car to resupply, then carry two shot bags, or one large one( Boy, I hate the idea of carrying all that weight. Even with my modern shotgun, and shooter's vest, I don't fill the loops up with shells, because I have never needed them. One time I went through all the shells I had on a long drive for pheasants, and borrowed a shell to chamber my gun for the walk back, but didn't use it, and gave it back to my friend as we approached the cars, and unloaded our guns. I took 3 more shells with me for years after that incident, and never even came close to using the original quantity of shells.)

The only two species of birds we can shoot here in the Midwest that have liberal bag limits is the morning dove, and the White, and blue geese. Both have daily bag limits of 15 birds. YOu have to shoot non-toxic shot at the geese, however.

I don't have the knees to be walking 6-10 miles anymore, so I wish you all the success. That Irish bag and snake will hold at least 1 lb. of shot, and possibly more. I have never filled it up, and then measured it. I did put so much shot in it the first time that it was uncomfortable to carry, so I took some shot out of it. One half pound of shot is more than I need for most hunts.

 

[Twice boom]

I try doing it as light as I can .The only thing I can't do with out is the water for the dog.
I don't wear vests or coats .If it's cold enough for a coat I layer dress instead.I have loops on my shell belt for when I get lucky and get few birds.If I'm hunting somewhere near the truck for an hour or so I cary a smaller canteen or fill the gallon one with less than max..

So you gonna make to Friendship,anybody.?

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have seen the new water packs that are worn on your back and have a hose and nozzle that comes over the shoulder for drinking. I have no interest in toting around that much water, but it might be better than having a gallon canteen banging your back or bottom. I am a fanatic when it comes to taking care of dogs, and even have carried water when another hunter is using a dog and doesn't have water for it!

I worked for several years with a Master K-9 trainer who was training handlers and dogs for Police work. We taught tracking together, me concentrating on visual tracking, and Joe teaching the handlers scent tracking with their dogs. I got to learn that my instincts about keeping dogs in very good shape and not letting them get too tired was right in line with his training. I love to watch bird dogs work- to the point of almost forgetting to shoot because I enjoyed watching so much---- but I also am not stupid enough to let dogs wear themselves out or cripple themselve, just trying to please their hunters.

 

[Twice boom]

Those water packs been around for quite a few years.I don't do them not because they are not a good thing, it's just that they don't fit in to my style of doing things. thy're a :nono: :winking: :grin: Both of my dogs have been trained to come in for water every 10 or so minutes. The problem is if you let them over heat a gallon of water wont be enough to save them if you hapen to be too far from the truck,So I trained them to come in for water.....

The other thing I do is to boot them up before each hunt to save their pads from the rocks...

Oh, and they get to sleep on my bed at night,unless I'm tenting it. :thumbsup:

Good chating with you.
Twice B.