A question for the Historians

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Why not a small cartridge box?

I would think it most correct. A block of wood with several holes bored to the correct size and then paper cartridges with your load and ball wrapped inside. Leather over the top and front as a flap cover and some more used as support on both sides.

Just a thought...

CS
 
CrackStock said:
Why not a small cartridge box?

I would think it most correct. A block of wood with several holes bored to the correct size and then paper cartridges with your load and ball wrapped inside. Leather over the top and front as a flap cover and some more used as support on both sides.

Just a thought...

CS

The cartridge box was a military item used by the Brits and also the Continentals. The whole idea was to load and fire quickly, and the Brits were very good at it. Would be surprised if it would have been seen in England at a sporting shoot. Definitely was a military accoutrement.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
 
" A block of wood with several holes bored to the correct size..." is the critical observation that give you the answer.

Tools were rare and expensive. Today we pay a couple of dollars for a drill bit, and a drill or brace, and grab a piece of wood from a home depot, or wood supplier, and we can drill away to our hearts content. Early drills were spoon bits, hard to forge, and slow to use. They were used in the timber framing business, and the spoon bits were an inch or larger. If you could find one that was only 1/2 " in diameter, it would cost you much money. Money is something that was always in short supply in the colonies. So, you didn't have ball blocks, or blocks to hold paper cartridges in a leather kit or box, as the soldiers did. Because calibers were totally dependent on the whim of the barrel maker, who also then made a cherry and cut a mold for the ball for that barrel, no one thought of making a uniform sized cartridge box for people to carry " cartridges " in. And paper was also in short supply. That is why powder was carried in horns, and patching could be made from small animal skins, or old cloth, or even using leaves in a pinch. Up until the 19th century, gun barrels were made to a " gauge" and sold as a gun that shoots X number of ball to the pound. Caliber meant nothing to people who had no tools to measure calibers! But everyone could count balls to the pound!

A 75 caliber musket ( brown bess) was an 11 gauge gun. A. .69 caliber is a 14 gauge. A .58 cal. is a 24 gauge. A 54. cal. is actually a 29 gauge. .50 is a 37 gauge. .45 is a 51 gauge. .40 is a 72 gauge. A .36 is a 100 gauge. and a .32 is a 142 gauge gun.

The smaller gauge rifles were very expensive to make, because the boring bits had to be made so small, and were equally fragile. The cost of making the tooling to build such a small bore gun was taken into consideration in pricing the gun. Smoothbore shotguns and fowlers were popular throughout the 17th and 18th centuries because they could be used to take both birds, and small mammals using shot. The guns cost much less to produce and to own than a small bore rifle.

It really was not until the Industrial age allowed mass production that small caliber rifles became available in any quantity for civilian use. We are talking the age of BP cartridges here, beginning with the .22 rimfire (short) cartridge in 1857, and others that came out as centerfire cartridges in the 1870s, and '80s.( the .38-40, the .32-20, and the .25-20 come to mind.) ( There are some references that refer to the .45-70 rifle as a " Needle gun "!)
 
One side of the loader was for shot while the other side might have been to carried the premeasured powder and separate pouch that was attached to the belt for wads....

I believe that we were discussing smoothbores here. I do not know how the small bore rifle tangent came into this...

I do know that drill bits required some special skills to make from my books on blacksmithing.

You are right, I do lean toward the military equipment.

However, I also know that many things were drilled beyond framing. There were also thousands of cartridge boxes made. There is history of the making of the cartridge boxes by lesser skilled people for the American military.

I guess that carrying a horn and shot snake might be best, but that did not seem to be the question. I think that manufacturing the apostles of a much earlier time would require even greater skill than a cartridge box and be even less appropriate.

CS
 
I don't know how Historical it will be but nonetheless I have started to make my belly belt that will hold my loaders... My intent is to make the belly belt so it will hold 8-10 premeasured powder and shot containers either out of copper or wood on each side with two pouches with snaps in the middle that will hold my wads and maybe a niple wrench or something I deem important enough to carry in the field.( No,I wont make them large enough for sandwiches or candy bars :nono: :nono: :) )
On each side I will attach a welded D ring which I will attach 4 leather thongs to hang birds by the neck. I will also make covers to go over the loaders to keep them out of the rain...
What do you think..

Twice B.
 
I am glad you are wearing it, and not me. I don't want that much weigh hanging from my waist. I even prefer a shoulder holster, to a belt holster for my handguns. Have you given a thought of what it will be to lay on that stuff if you have to go prone?
 
I too might think that if I had not been wearing a cartridge belt since the early eighties.
Back then I chased chukar just a bout every week end and with the limit of eight Daily I fond the vest to be cumbersome,hot and worst of all it would make my lower back hurt with all that weight pulling down on my spine.. Remember that the game pouch on the vest rests around the area on the small on your back so it pulls rather than pushes,now ad the water I had /have to carry for the dogs which also rests around the are a of the game pouch on the vest and pretty soon you are approaching fifteen to twenty pounds that your spine has to support..

I didn't design my cartridge belt on a whim,I designed it to carry my birds evenly from the hips down just like the Iron workers cary their two or three pound wrenches one or two on each side while they stay in ballance high above on a steel beam..

My new Belly belt will not weigh any more more than my cartrige belt that hold 25 cartridges of at least two ounce (or close their abouts) each. I designed it to carry 18 loads with two loads in the barrel makes twenty.Pleanty of fire power when needed for a mornings hunt.
My only regret is that I have not seen a picture of one but what an auctioneer passed off as a Calonial Belly Belt as a metal paper shell box.
So I was left to coppy that particular design with a little twist to suite my needs,just like the upland hunter from days gone by would have designed and made something with his own hands to suite his needs as he saw them from something that already existed..

That's how America moved on.... :thumbsup: IMHO.
 
I understand that copper tubing was supplied before the revolution. You could slightly flare the ends and rasp or file a plug for either end. I have made spouts for ball or shot bags like this. However, I have never seen a period reference to this type of speed loader.

CS
 
Thanks for the suggestions.
Cowans auction had one on display that went for $1400 I believe .It was not exactly like the one I'm going to make ,but nonetheless it was close enough. The one they auctioned was for holding paper cartridges 15 I believe and it had a two small pouches with a draw string closure. They called it "Calonial Belly paper cartridge box..
Thanks.
Twice B.
 
If you want to see more original/replica belly boxes, you might try inquiring among the F&I/7-Years-War and Rev-War/AWI communities. The blocks were generally curved to ride comfortable and started with maybe 6-9 holes in the block and grew to maybe 18 holes in two rows, before they were mostly abandoned for larger-capacity shoulder-carried ones. IIRC, the British terminology was "cartridge box" for the things carried in front on a waist-belt and "cartridge pouch" for the shoulder-belt carried ones. In the AWI, cartridge boxes were often converted for shoulder carry, and sometimes on campaign, they doubled up a box and a pouch on the shoulder belt to carry more ammo.

Hope this is of assistance.

Joel
 
Joel/Calgary said:
If you want to see more original/replica belly boxes, you might try inquiring among the F&I/7-Years-War and Rev-War/AWI communities. The blocks were generally curved to ride comfortable and started with maybe 6-9 holes in the block and grew to maybe 18 holes in two rows, before they were mostly abandoned for larger-capacity shoulder-carried ones. IIRC, the British terminology was "cartridge box" for the things carried in front on a waist-belt and "cartridge pouch" for the shoulder-belt carried ones. In the AWI, cartridge boxes were often converted for shoulder carry, and sometimes on campaign, they doubled up a box and a pouch on the shoulder belt to carry more ammo.

Hope this is of assistance.

Joel

There were both shoulder carried cartridge boxes and belly boxes (worn on a belt). Belly boxes held as few as 8 or 9 and as many as 18 cartridges. Shoulder-strapped cartridge boxes held 24, 27 or 30. One ingenious design held 36 with 18 on the top and 18 on the bottom. Of course, you had to take the box out and turn it over to use the second set of 18, so it wasn't all that popular.

The British cartridge boxes were beautifully finished. Continentals also had some nicely finished boxes, but some of them were nothing more than a block of wood with holes drilled in it that a leather flap and shoulder straps had been nailed onto. At least they usually painted the wood black.

Twisted_1in66
 
Thanks guys. I already commited to a design.I doubt that it will be anything close to an original but it will be along the concept of the original..
Thanks again .
TB.
 
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