A Second Montana Hawken

[Herb]

On September 10th I went to Kalispell after Helena and found another Hawken in the Museum at Central School. I don't know if this is a J&S or a Sam Hawken, but probably J&S because of the nosecap. Gil Jordan is the director and let me take photos, but was busy so I couldn't ask him to take the rifle out so I could see it better. His phone number is 406-756-8381 and E-mail is [email protected].

 

[Dphar]

This rifle needs a closer examination for sure.

Typical Museum.
The Remington Rolling Block is a Navy Arms Frankenstein version.
The ML on the far left looks new too. If it were original the sling would be rotted off by now.

Dan

 

[Herb]

I enlarged the lock photo and it is stamped J&S Hawken. The ram rod is too small for the pipes, they may be 1/2" like the Bridger pipes.

 

[plmeek]

Shame on the museum for not labeling their exhibits properly.

It's hard to tell through the glass, but that Hawken looks like a Green River Rifle Works Hawken to me.

The lock looks to be a William Morgan lock that GRRW used on many of their early Hawken rifles. The breech plug snail looks like the Cherry Corners breech and tang that GRRW used with the Morgan lock.

This is one of my GRRW Hawken rifles for comparison.

The nose cap that GRRW used on these versions was hand-made of two pieces of sheet iron, brazed together. GRRW also put the little slot in the end of the wedge key like this one.

GRRW Hawken nose cap.

Based on Dan's observations about the other rifles in the display case, most if not all, are likely replicas and should be labeled as such.

 

[Erzulis boat]

I could be wrong............. I don't think any of those arms are "real".

I agree with the above post.

 

[Herb]

Here is apparently that same lock with Cherry Corner triggers. I don't know where I got these parts, but I built this rifle. A friend has what I think is this same engraved lock and built a rifle with GRRW parts with it. He said they had this lock, that was back in the 70's. I thought that museum rifle was unusual in its light color. Probably acid stained and the stain faded.

 

[George T.]

That is a fine looking rifle you put together there! The lock sure looks the same but then again it may be a very good copy.

Geo. T.

 

[don hepler]

I have a rifle built, using Dixie parts, which includes a William Morgan lock. Anyone know where I can find a new tumbler? Or, maybe a complete lock.

 

[LaBonte]

That is a fine looking rifle you put together there! The lock sure looks the same but then again it may be a very good copy.

Geo. T.

The only original of this lock that I am aware of is on the so-called Dunham Hawken which was made circa late 1830's - the rifle pictured above, while it may have been originally advertised as a J & S kit the parts scream a Sam Hawken copy, not a J & S (look at the snail and the triggerguard - both are post 1849 Sam Hawken styles - a not uncommon "mistake" of the 1970's kits)
here's a pic of the original lock

and yep I don't have a problem for a museum to use such as rifle as an example due to the cost of an original, but it should be properly marked...

 

[plmeek]

I contacted the museum using the email Herb provided. I asked about any markings on the barrel of the Hawken. This is the reply I received back.

Turns out we have (on loan) a fairly valuable original. The only markings on the gun say "J & S Hawken" on the lock plate--no other markings--standing for, of course, as you know, Jacob and his brother Sam, who joined the family business in 1822, and took it over from their father in 1862.

They seem to believe they have an original Hawken on loan.

I still suspect it is a GRRW Hawken, and without any barrel markings, it's probably a kit from GRRW that someone put together.

Here is a letter from Greg Roberts of GRRW that was published in the Buckskin Report explaining why they stopped marking the barrels in their kits.

It's rather ironic that they were concerned about sloppy kits being passed off as factory rifles while we have one here that was assembled well enough to make someone think it's an original some 30+ years latter.

 

[Herb]

Next Friday night I am having a chioppino (Mediterrainian seafood stew) and wine party at my place with 14 people, 3 of them GRRW people. I'll show my camera photos of that rifle on the TV screen and see what reaction I get. If Neill Fields says "I built that rifle" or Carney Pace recognizes it, or Dave Boender says he photographed it, I'll post the results here.