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A True Green Behind-The-Ears Blackpowder Beginner... HALP!

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BP_Beginner

Pilgrim
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O.K., here's the deal. My name is John and I'm 45. Although I've owned lots of guns for many years now, I recently came across something exciting. I recently bought my first muzzleloading blackpowder firearm, and I honestly don't know what to do next! :confused:

The gun is a CVA Frontier Carbine Kit rifle, 40" long and the barrel is 24". I bought it on the cheap and it didn't even have a ramrod (I figured I could get one for it later). I am SO excited about getting it to the range and doing some range work with it, but again, I need some advice (which is why I'm here). Please help! I'm totally clueless as to what to do next! I throw myself on the mercy of this forum. :surrender:

To start off with, I want to shoot round lead ball, but what diameter should I use? .490 175 grain... would that be good to start with? How long should the ramrod be when I get one? What about the type of powder - what would you recommend for me? I figure #11 nipple caps, is that right? Where can I get a manual for this rifle?... I went to the CVA website but they don't have it listed.

Anything else you can help me with - thank you in advance. Sorry to be such a pain, but I guess I'll learn more as I explore more of this forum. Thanks again!!
 
first you should put your location in your profile. that way maybe some one here could be close to you and you could meet and get some lessions. always works better inperson then just trying to write it out.

your .45 will need .440 or .445 round balls and .012-.018 patchs.

you will aslo need a powder measure don't want to load out of the can or horn. a short starter. a ram rod or loading rod. you will also need a cleaning jag to screw onto the loading rod. you will need caps. a can of powder i would use 3f with a starting load of 45 gr.
 
And this blackpowder hobby is one that is well worth spending some quiet time reading some introductory articles too...an awful lot of info to try and digest at once and safety issues are ever present
 
your .45 will need .440 or .445 round balls and .012-.018 patchs.

Actually, he said that he is 45! :)

Since he brought up .490 ball we can assume it is a .50 cal....maybe! :)

Couple years ago a friend bought an ml gun and brought it to me and said "what else do I need?". I made him a list and later sorta expanded it just for guys like you. Here it is:

What does a new ML shooter need? (geared to a .50 caliber rifle)

There are probably a few things that you need that are specific to your firearm, caliber, shooting activity or your style, but I think you will find the following general list helpful.

1. Propellant, Real BP or a substitute. ( the more real the better!)

2. You do NEED a range rod! It's invaluable for a day at the range and for cleaning. Get a steel rod (treso is good) and also a brass bore guide that fits it to prevent muzzle wear. Fiberglass is popular, but it also works your muzzle like fine sandpaper.

3. A good patch jag. The jag should have a tapered section behind the patch holding portion that allows a place for the patch to bunch up behind the jag when you pull it out of the bore.

4. Some kinda cleaning patches. Actually, cutting up an old cotton flannel shirt works pretty good. Lately I use cotton flannel from wal mart sold for making baby diapers.

5. You need a pour spout to put on your propellant container that you can cover while shooting or better yet that has an automatic open/close feature as you use it. That way a spark won't fly into the can and set the whole thing off!

6. A volumetric powder measure unless you plan to use pellets (as a new shooter, you might find that loose measured powder will make it easier to establish a good load for your gun. Besides, it's a lot cheaper to use loose powder.) Later, as an experienced shooter you will chuckle at the guys who use pellets.

7. A lost patch retriever. This screws onto your rod like the jag only it has a couple twisted wire dealies on the end. If you lose a patch down the bore, you can attach it to your rod and drop it down to the patch. Give it a few turns and pull the patch out. Sure, you can tear the gun apart or quit for the day and get it out at cleaning time, but the retriever will solve the problem in minutes and not ruin your day at the range! You should also get a caliber specific ball pulling fitting.

8. Course, you gotta have primers!

9. Projectiles. There's a ton of these for sale along with related sabots and of course power belts with the plastic thingie attached. They all seem to work pretty good, but, if you don't want to use round balls, nothing takes an animal down like a 350 to 450 grain pure lead conical that you cast yourself for pennies apiece.

10. Some lube if you decide to use the lead conicals. TC 1000+ (also sold as bore butter) is an excellent lube and also works well as a round ball patch lube.

11. A short starter to get the projectile started down the bore the first few inches.

12. Some .490 or .495 round balls. Cheap to shoot and with light loads dandy for small game and fine for deer etc with heavier loads. Even cheaper if you cast your own using a $20 Lee round ball mold!

13. Some patching material if you decide to use the round balls. You can buy it at the sports stores or get yourself some 8 or 10 oz duck, denim or pillow ticking. Use the same lube you would use for the conicals.

14. A very sharp knife to cut the patch material once the ball is started down the bore about a 1/4 inch with the short starter. Or, you can use precut patches either round or square.

15. How about some targets?

16. Some speed loaders if you plan to hunt. Butler Creek loaders are nice and they're cheap too!

17. Bore solvent. Mix tap water at 10 to 1 with kitchen dish soap and use for a bore solvent and patch lube. Don't use it for a patch lube while hunting since the water content will promote a rust ring in the bore. A grease lube is better for hunting. Plain old crisco is a fine grease lube

18. Some alcohol to dry the bore after cleaning (not really necessary but convenient).

19. Safety rated glasses to be worn while you shoot.

20. A sight adjustment tool (hey it's easy to forget, I've done it many times!!).

21. Two pieces of old carpet. One to put under the butt of the gun on the ground while loading. The other to put on the bench or whatever you lean the gun on while reloading.

22. A rag to wipe your hands off occasionally.

23. A plastic fishing tackle box to put all this stuff in!

24. Patience. It takes a while to get into the rhythm and flow of shooting bp guns. It seems like the big grails sought by most bp shooters is the powder that cleans easily and is the least like real BP and the magic lube/projectile/powder/secret potion that allows the shooter to shoot XXXXX times without wiping the bore. Avoid that trap!

25. Dedication. Shoot a lot. If shooting bp a lot is not fun, then get rid of the ml gun and go back to cartridge! You will not arrive at the best load combo for your gun by going to the range and shooting 4 or 5 three shot groups. You will probably burn two or three pounds of powder before you really get to know what your gun likes. One good accidental 3 shot group means nothing. Try shooting 10 shot groups for a true picture.

I probably missed a few things. Once you make a few trips to the range, you will be adding to and subtracting from this list!

Good luck and good shooting!!
 
BP_Beginner said:
O.K., here's the deal. My name is John and I'm 45. Although I've owned lots of guns for many years now, I recently came across something exciting. I recently bought my first muzzleloading blackpowder firearm, and I honestly don't know what to do next! :confused:

The gun is a CVA Frontier Carbine Kit rifle, 40" long and the barrel is 24". I bought it on the cheap and it didn't even have a ramrod (I figured I could get one for it later). I am SO excited about getting it to the range and doing some range work with it, but again, I need some advice (which is why I'm here). Please help! I'm totally clueless as to what to do next! I throw myself on the mercy of this forum. :surrender:

To start off with, I want to shoot round lead ball, but what diameter should I use? .490 175 grain... would that be good to start with? How long should the ramrod be when I get one? What about the type of powder - what would you recommend for me? I figure #11 nipple caps, is that right? Where can I get a manual for this rifle?... I went to the CVA website but they don't have it listed.

Anything else you can help me with - thank you in advance. Sorry to be such a pain, but I guess I'll learn more as I explore more of this forum. Thanks again!!


My oldest boy's gun is a frontier kit rifle. They are 50 caliber ( although I rebarreled my boy's to a 45 ). I suggest you start with a 490 round ball and ten thousands patch since the rifling is only five thousands deep. I suggest you start at 45 grains FFF Geox black powder if you can get it. As to length of ramrod you want one that will stick out the barrel about an inch when the gun is unloaded. You want the "jag" end of the ramrod to fit your barrel and cleaning patch so that yhe patch slides down the barrel easily, and "bunches up " the cleaning patch and pulls the fouling out. Too tight of a fit will push fowling down and block you drum so that the fouling will cause misfires.(The CVA's are known for this since the drum actually goes through the breech plug). The main thing about this game is trying what works b est for your gun. There are so many varibles it is a wonder we ever hit anything.
 
Welcome to the black side, you will enjoy this hobby or sickness, there are lots of good people here to offer very good advice (Read and learn). This is all I shoot now, & I'm a dumb old woods hillbilly..
 
Well BP Beginner, ya done it now! Abandon hope all ye who have entered here... :shake: You done be hooked now. You'll find a lot of good advice here on the forum. The list that marmotslayer posted is a good start. You'll notice from it that you will need a lot of stuff. The more you get into this, the more stuff you'll end up getting. Of course you'll probably make a lot of what you need, that's half the fun! My advice is only use the true black stuff if you can. I've only put real black powder through my muzzleloaders, but that's the way I am. Good luck and welcome!
Scott
 
BP_Beginner

WELCOME TO THE FORUM! :)
Looks like your getting a good list of things for your new rifle and I agree that everything listed will come in handy.

If you want a bare bones list I would suggest assuming your gun is a .50 caliber:

1. .490 diameter lead balls.

2. .010 or .015 thick pure cotton shooting patches.

3. #11 Percussion Caps (any brand and either regular or Magnum will do.)

4. A "Short Starter". Basically a wooden ball with a 3/8 diameter X 1/4" length dowel and a 3/8 diameter X 3" long dowel sticking out of it.
This is used to drive the patched ball into the muzzle, first with the short dowel then with the longer dowel. The ramrod then is used to push the patched ball down on top of the powder.

5. An adjustable volumetric powder measure in the 40-90 grain range will do.

6. A ramrod or range rod.

7. A Cleaning Jag. Usually grooved brass. Get one that is made for a .50 caliber bore.

8. Powder. With your percussion gun you can use either real black powder (best), or any of the synthetic black powders. Do not buy pellets. They often will not work well in a sidelock gun.

9. Patch lube. Either one like Bore Butter or simply use a vegetable oil or spit.

You can (and will) buy more of the stuff later but this will get you started. :)

PS: Even though you've been shooting for years I need to add that under NO circumstances should you use ANY brand or type of smokeless powder in your muzzleloader. Doing so can kill.
 
Hi John,

Welcome to your next addiction. :grin:
And welcome to the forum. :hatsoff:

It wasn't all that many years ago that I bought my first MLing rifle... a CVA Frontier. Nice little rifle. I didn't know what to do next either. You've already saved yourself a lot of time by finding this forum right away. :thumbsup:

My Frontier likes 70 grains of FFg, a greased .015 patch, and a .490 round ball. It works MUCH better with real Goex than with Pyrodex.

Get everything on Zonie's list AND a nipple wrench. You'll want that when you go to clean it later.

I would also recommend going shooting with an experienced BP shooter if possible. They could be a huge help.

Read up here on the forum, round up the stuff, and go to it. Have fun and be safe. :hatsoff:
 
Welcome to the world of muzzle loading. All the advice you have received here is good to go. I might add a few fundamentals about loading. First pop some caps. The first should be with the gun pointed down range. We know it wasn't loaded, but why not be extra safe. The next cap you fire with the gun pointed at something on the ground, over the firing line, (leaf paper etc. ) that will move if your gun is clear of oil etc. It should move a leaf or paper if clear. Load as has been recommended (using powder measure). Ram ball down on to the powder charge. Mark your rammer at the muzzle (pencil or pen). The reason for this is that when you fire a build up of fouling can occur and make it feel like you have the ball down all the way when you don't. This can produce a dangerous situation changing your ball from a projectile to an obstruction. On re loading just use your mark to indicate your ball is seated on the charge. Hope you have as much fun as I have had over the years. I am just learning too. been doing it about 45 years. Black powder is really quite safe if you use that safety between your ears. Now go make some smoke and noise.
 
The main thing is too have fun! I am not going to comment on ball size as I am not sure if we are talking about a .45 or .50, and you suggestions for both calibers.
Real black powder is one of the best things you will ever do for yourself if you can get it!
When first starting to develop a load, make a journal to keep up with your grains of powder, patch and ball. Move in small increments when trying to develop a load that best suits your gun. That’s where you will get your accuracy from. Every gun even if it is the same make and caliber as your buddy’s, has its own sweet spot as far as powder, patch and ball. Get into a routine of how you load it helps to avoid the inevitable "dryball"! :redface:
You have got to become part of the gun, probably more so than with any other firearm, but you learn your own limitations and the guns limitations. Well like I said the rest is all about having fun!!!!!!!!!
Don't be afraid to ask questions, this forum has a lot of very knowledgeable people, and most of us can remember when we were just getting started! :grin:
 
The NMLRA web site had a little article on loading and safety, although last time I was on their site, I couldn't find it.

You can read manuals and articles for hours. That's how I started 30 years ago, because there were few knowledgeable folks around. You can learn more in 5 mintues with a "grey beard" than a shelf full of books. See if you can locate a muzzleloader club near your home and attend just one match and explain you are a newbie. You'll have all the help, you could want.

As for finishing that kit. Take your time, lots and lots of time. And then when you think you are ready to finish it and put it together, take some more time. Kits are funny things, a sloppy or messed up job can turn a $190 kit into a $45.00 gun real fast. Or they can be first rate guns worth more than the kit, when finished. There are various stains on the market, and some really look like garbage. When my stpe son wanted to put a kit together, I insisted he take his time. I didn't want him doing the acid finish, so we used a good quality brown leather dye. (not shoe polish or shoe dye) Let it soak in and dry, then a light buffing and a few coats of LinSpeed, each hand rubbed with 4 ought steel wool. (not 3 ought or 2 ought, but 4 ought) It looks great.
 
The only item I saw that was not listed was a ball extractor. A small screw-on accessory for your ram or range rod. It has a wood screw tip for screwing into a "Dryball" for extraction. Another option is a CO2 ball discharger.
This site has covered just about every topic and question imaginable. The "Search" function is invaluable.
 
i have books that helped me when i got started Black Powder Guide by George c, Nonte jr it has alot of imformation in it. the other one i got a wal mart in the sporting section Muzzeloading the complete hunter but i dont know for sure if they still handle them its been a few YEARS both books great help
neal (50 cal)
 
One thing is for sure, John, you came to the right place! When I first got into it I got a Blackpowder Manual, by Sam Fadala (I think). It answered all kinds of questions for me, stuff I never would have even thought to ask. Most of the people here are really experienced, and very free with their time to help a greenhorn. Welcome!
 
The only item I saw that was not listed was a ball extractor.

That's a good observation. I did not list it because I did not own one at the time of making the list. Was always and advocate of dribbling powder under the nipple. Works great if not a flinter. :)

Am going to add it to the list. I did acquire one and have used it once and must admit that it worked very nicely.
 
bob308 said:
first you should put your location in your profile. that way maybe some one here could be close to you and you could meet and get some lessions. always works better inperson then just trying to write it out.

I'm in Roswell, GA. If anyone is near me, let me know.

your .45 will need .440 or .445 round balls and .012-.018 patchs.

Oops! I did mention that I am 45 years old, but forgot to mention that my BP gun is .50 caliber.

you will aslo need a powder measure don't want to load out of the can or horn. a short starter. a ram rod or loading rod. you will also need a cleaning jag to screw onto the loading rod. you will need caps. a can of powder i would use 3f with a starting load of 45 gr.

Thanks again. What length do I make the ramrod for this gun - anybody know? Or should I get it oversized and size it to fit?

Glad I found this forum and you guys are great for helping me out. Give me a chance to get to the gun store and browse a round a bit and I'll get back to this forum to report my findings. :wink:
 
BP_Beginner said:
Thanks again. What length do I make the ramrod for this gun - anybody know? Or should I get it oversized and size it to fit?
Mine's about 1/2" shorter than my barrel, but I leave a 1 1/2" jag/seater threaded onto the end, so it sticks out about an inch. Doesn't seem to affect anything.
 
bdhutier said:
BP_Beginner said:
Thanks again. What length do I make the ramrod for this gun - anybody know? Or should I get it oversized and size it to fit?
Mine's about 1/2" shorter than my barrel, but I leave a 1 1/2" jag/seater threaded onto the end, so it sticks out about an inch. Doesn't seem to affect anything.

Also, keep in mind the relationship between the rod length and the end of the barrel. When my rod is in the rod holder, it protrudes out of the forearm and rings about a 1/4" short of the barrel end. Not sure if it makes a huge difference mechanically, but it looks better (IMO).
 

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