A. Waters flintlock

[mjydrafter]

Hello, I am a new member of this forum. I've been looking around for info on an old flintlock I've had in my collection for a long time.

It's an A. Waters 1836 flintlock that has had some missing parts replaced. The only part that isn't currently there is the sear spring.

This is the only pic I have at hand:

Just curious as to what kind of value it might have?

I have seen them all over the place, on the net pricewise. Up to $4800 for really well preserved examples.

This one is all original excepting the top jaw & screw, the ramrod assembly, and the sear spring.

All the proof markings are there and easily read and I have looked them all up, in a Dixie catalog.

Thank you for any information you might be able to provide.

 

[Zonie]

According to the 2008 "FLAYDERMAN'S GUIDE TO ANTIQUE AMERICAN FIREARMS...and their values" you have a Model 1836 Flintlock pistol which was made from 1836 to 1844.
These were made by Asa Waters & Robert Johnson.
Asa Waters plant was in Millbury, Massachusetts.

The total production of these pistols by both companies was 41,000.

It was originally left in the white except for the lockplate, cock and frizzen which were casehardened. The trigger and frizzen spring were blued.

This .54 caliber gun was an improved version of the Model 1826 and is the last Flintlock pistol produced for the Military.

Quoting from Flayderman's, "...many collectors regard this as the best made, most attractive, and best performing of all U.S. military flint handguns. It was the standard issue handgun of the Mexican War and continued to see extensive use, converted to percussion, in the Civil War.
A significant quantity of production was later altered (in the 1850's) to percussion..."

Flayderman's goes on to say, "...The collector is cautioned to be very wary of spurious marked specimens."

A. WATERS/MILBURY,MS marked specimens. Dated 1837 through 1843. Estimated quantity made 20,000. Values--Good $850, Fine $3,000

A.H.WATERS & co/MILBURY, MASS/1844 marked specimens Estimated quantity made 3,000.
Values--Good $875, Fine $3250

Flayderman's is considered to be the basis for antique firearms and the values given are generally accepted as valid.

You may note that there is a wide variation in the estimated price and it is primarily based on the condition of the gun (and the buyers desire to own it).

 

[mjydrafter]

Thank you for all that information. So I assume that this would be more of a "shooter" than a super collectable, depending on who you ask?

I've read about proofing an old one, what else do people do to check them out? I took it in to a modern gun shop one time, and it seemed it was somewhat ridiculed.

It's interesting to me that even with the 170+ age, you can go back and see the names of the men who made/proofed it.

I added the parts to the gun many years ago as my first attempts at some begining gunsmithing. I decided to leave the parts I added "bare" so as not to appear as a forgery. I was not able to get a sear spring made. I broke the one I ordered.

Maybe I should make up and add my proof :youcrazy: :rotf:

Thank you again for taking the time to answer.

 

[Zonie]

Without an operating sear spring IMO one could say it is not in shooting condition.

As for knuckleheads that would ridicule you or your pistol it shows ignorance on their part and I doubt that I would trust what they told me.

If this was my pistol and I wondered if it was shootable I would take just the barrel to a automotive engine rebuilding shop that had a Magnaflux or some other type of Magnetic Particle Inspection equipment and pay them to check it for cracks.
This type of inspection equipment can detect hidden cracks even if they are inside the barrel.

Even if the barrel passed this inspection I would keep the powder loads on the very light side because the threads in the breech or on the breech plug may be rusted rather badly. If this is the case the breech will not be as strong as they were when they were new.

If you do this, be sure and tell them that the barrel is very likely made of iron so it will have some small linear indications. What your looking for are actual cracks.

As for the sear spring, there is no reason you couldn't make one from spring stock.
The method is beyond what is discussed in this Pistol section but if you decide to try it, post your questions in the Gun Builders Bench area and we will tell you what is required.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Got to go with Zonie on this one. If you get the barrel checked, there's no reason it can't be fired if the parts are found. Dixie Gun Works used to have a lot of original parts for these guns and hae even had some of them reproduced recently. If you get it going, those guns don't need more than about 40 grains to be shooters. Good luck on your project.

 

[Toomuch_36]

The biggest question I can see as regards to value, is your pistol an "origional flint" or a percussion conversion that has been re-converted back to flint.

Toomuch
.........
Shoot Flint

 

[mjydrafter]

I'm pretty sure it's an original flintlock, as far as I can tell. I'll see if I can get a couple of better pics. I miss-spoke in my first post, it's has the 1837 date.

 

[mjydrafter]

Here are a few pictures I took last night.

 

[mjydrafter]

Woke up early this morning and decided it was high time I had this thing functioning. At least mechanically, I may not shoot this one, just nice to know it's operable.

So I made a sear spring, I'm embarassed to admit what the spring is made of... You know those ball point pens with a seperate cap, the ones with the nice flat stainless steel pocket clips? I will let you use your imagination... :rotf:

So it goes to half cock, and full cock... It could use some fine tuning, but it works.

Is it bad to dry fire these? I get mixed feelings about dry firing, even in modern firearms. Some say never do it, and others say fire away. So, what's the consensus?

 

[renovato]

You can stick a piece of wood in the cock, in place of the flint, and safely dry fire away. This prevents wear on the frizzen face. A piece of wood clothespin works fine.

 

[Zonie]

As Plink says you can put a piece of hardwood in the cock and dryfire flintlocks without damaging them.

Well, "without damaging them" might be amended by saying "...without the risk of doing any harm that normal shooting will do."

I added this because springs over long periods of time can develop weaknesses in their material.
That can lead to failure.

While I'm sure your new pens clip spring may work for years, the mainspring might have some hidden weakness that will cause it to break. Then again, it may be just fine for years of firing the gun. It is impossible to know just how long it will last.