Accuracy of Zouave Rifles

[yocumwj]

Thinking of purchasing a Traditions Zouave rifle. Are they accurate? What are some good loads for these rifles?

 

[dave951]

Thinking of purchasing a Traditions Zouave rifle. Are they accurate? What are some good loads for these rifles?

If you plan on shooting minies, know that they are a world unto themselves but it's not rocket science. There are a few basics that must be observed to get accuracy with minies- pure lead sized .001 under measured bore size, natural based lube like beeswax/tallow,lard,crisco, real black powder 3f, quality caps (RWS or Scheutzen)

Here's a target I shot with a "Zouave" with a basic load set up for use with teaching muzzleloading in a Scout camp. Load is a good "mid range" one. Data- RCBS Hogdon, 45g 3f Scheutzen, Scheutzen caps, beeswax/lard lube. Note- this is NOT a group shot from a bench with a load tuned for maximum accuracy, this was 10 shots, rapid fire, offhand position at 50yd and no wiping between shots. Each square on the target is 1in.

Here's what's possible if you are really after accuracy-

 

[Stantheman86]

What do you have available to shoot in it?

Are you planning on shooting Patched Round Balls or are you buying or casting Minies you can lube and size?

It will be a Chiappa Zouave, they make a "Match" and a Standard model.

Accuracy is highly subjective. Under 6" at 100 was considered acceptable in the original period.

 

[64Springer]

Save your money and buy a nice used Antonio Zoli Zouave/1863 Remington from the 1960s.

They are twice the firearm for half the price.

You can't visit Gunbroker without tripping over the ones being offered for sale there.

 

[Stantheman86]

Save your money and buy a nice used Antonio Zoli Zouave/1863Remington from the 1960s.

They are twice the firearm for half the price.

You can't visit Gunbroker without tripping over the ones being offered for sale there.

I just got a Zoli from a GunBroker dealer for $400, they are sleepers

I had a Buffalo Hunter that shot very well

GunBroker has dozens of them but some of the sellers seem a little too optimistic with their prices.

 

[morehops52]

Dave951 has some good advice. I got a Zouave many years ago and found minnie diameter to be critical. After finding the recommended .577 Minnies going thru the target sideways (keyholing). I had a custom bullet maker make cast me some small batches varying the diameters by.001 each. Rifle shot pretty well after I found the right bullet. Unfortunately for me it never realized my expectations. I thought it would be really cool to get a deer with a 58 cal CW rifle. It only took one day of hunting to realize it wasn't one of my better decisions.

 

[Stantheman86]

.575 is the "standard " Minie size I try in all of my .58's and I've never had any of them shoot poorly with them.

Some do better with a .577 or .578, but in two of my P-H P53's , .577's don't even start down the muzzle . Finding the right size is critical

Lots of people on YouTube will "teach " you to shoot .570 Patched Balls in Rifle-Muskets because it's an easy way to get some short range accuracy with the patch doing the "sizing" for you, but these rifles aren't intended to be used with round balls.

If Minies are keyholing with .577's then the bore of that rifle must be enormously oversized

 

[alcessapiens]

.575 is the "standard " Minie size I try in all of my .58's and I've never had any of them shoot poorly with them.

Some do better with a .577 or .578, but in two of my P-H P53's , .577's don't even start down the muzzle . Finding the right size is critical

Lots of people on YouTube will "teach " you to shoot .570 Patched Balls in Rifle-Muskets because it's an easy way to get some short range accuracy with the patch doing the "sizing" for you, but these rifles aren't intended to be used with round balls.

If Minies are keyholing with .577's then the bore of that rifle must be enormously oversized

Or possibly too heavy a charge blowing out the skirt.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Thinking of purchasing a Traditions Zouave rifle. Are they accurate? What are some good loads for these rifles?

They are very nice and should shoot a minie quite well.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Save your money and buy a nice used Antonio Zoli Zouave/1863 Remington from the 1960s.

They are twice the firearm for half the price.

Agreed! They appear to run around $400 or so. FWIW A place near me recently had a new one, I thought it was from Chiappa, and it was almost $900 and it sure didn’t look anything special to me for THAT price!

A friend, a top shooter in the NS-SA, uses plug gauges to ‘size’ the barrels and we then use sizers from Lodgewood to size our Minies 0.002” under the bore diameter to work up the load.

 

[SPQR70AD]

Save your money and buy a nice used Antonio Zoli Zouave/1863 Remington from the 1960s.

They are twice the firearm for half the price.

You can't visit Gunbroker without tripping over the ones being offered for sale there.

I just looked only saw 2 Zouave rifles. one was 1200 the other a Zoli had 350 bid not price

 

[Eras Gone]

I agree with white folks are saying about the Zoli‘s. But you must size your bullet to the bore size of that particular gun. They will vary a little bit. If you’re going for accuracy, typically 40 to 45 grain powder charge will do best. The only bad thing about the Zoli‘s is there are no lock parts available anymore. If you break a seer or Tumbler, you’ll have to have a gunsmith make or alter another part to fit your gun.

 

[Stantheman86]

Or possibly too heavy a charge blowing out the skirt.

Probably the case , I didn't even think about that

 

[Stantheman86]

I agree with white folks are saying about the Zoli‘s. But you must size your bullet to the bore size of that particular gun. They will vary a little bit. If you’re going for accuracy, typically 40 to 45 grain powder charge will do best. The only bad thing about the Zoli‘s is there are no lock parts available anymore. If you break a seer or Tumbler, you’ll have to have a gunsmith make or alter another part to fit your gun.

For $400 I'll shoot it, and take care of it....and if a lock part breaks I'll retire it to the wall

I'd think a person who shoots 50-100 rounds a month will get years or a lifetime of use from a lock, if it's "run hard" or used as a training rifle for matches and that lock sees 1000s of cycles per month then it's probably wiser to get something that can be serviced

 

[dave951]

.575 is the "standard " Minie size I try in all of my .58's and I've never had any of them shoot poorly with them.


If Minies are keyholing with .577's then the bore of that rifle must be enormously oversized

.575 is the "nominal" size but with repops, I've seen the bores going from .574 to .584 and everything in between. I've even seen originals at .579+. And yes, I shot an original 61 Springfield last weekend and it took .579 minies to be accurate. At 160+ years old, with issue sights and trigger, it'd still put 5 shots into 2in at 50yd all day. The bore size on the original doesn't surprise me one bit as it's not the only one I've seen larger than .575. BUT it was shooting my match ammunition for my 62 Colts.

The real problem here is there are far too many armchair types who believe everything they read about these guns and take it as gospel that with the marvel of replaceable parts, they'll all be the same. Problem is, we're dealing with wartime frenzied production by various companies, all of whom were trying to cash in on the arms race while being the lowest bidder. Couple that with the Europeans dumping their "old" stuff in the the American scuffle and you have a logistic nightmare with no real standard at all. The average person will pop on to utoob and believe what some reenactor says cuz "he's a Civil War guy" and then go to the range with his minies cast from wheel weight scrap sold by a round ball outfit, load his Civil War gun with .575 cuz "that's what they take", use modern Bore Butter cuz "that's what works in a T/C" and use lots of Pdex to roughly equal a 60g service charge and use questionable CCI blanks caps and then log into his favorite muzzleloading forum and whine about bad accuracy. This happens so often it's almost like a script.

 

[64Springer]

"Questionable CCI caps".

Me thinks you're being overly generous.

CCI: manure Caps Incorporated.

 

[Stantheman86]

.575 is the "nominal" size but with repops, I've seen the bores going from .574 to .584 and everything in between. I've even seen originals at .579+. And yes, I shot an original 61 Springfield last weekend and it took .579 minies to be accurate. At 160+ years old, with issue sights and trigger, it'd still put 5 shots into 2in at 50yd all day. The bore size on the original doesn't surprise me one bit as it's not the only one I've seen larger than .575. BUT it was shooting my match ammunition for my 62 Colts.

The real problem here is there are far too many armchair types who believe everything they read about these guns and take it as gospel that with the marvel of replaceable parts, they'll all be the same. Problem is, we're dealing with wartime frenzied production by various companies, all of whom were trying to cash in on the arms race while being the lowest bidder. Couple that with the Europeans dumping their "old" stuff in the the American scuffle and you have a logistic nightmare with no real standard at all. The average person will pop on to utoob and believe what some reenactor says cuz "he's a Civil War guy" and then go to the range with his minies cast from wheel weight scrap sold by a round ball outfit, load his Civil War gun with .575 cuz "that's what they take", use modern Bore Butter cuz "that's what works in a T/C" and use lots of Pdex to roughly equal a 60g service charge and use questionable CCI blanks caps and then log into his favorite muzzleloading forum and whine about bad accuracy. This happens so often it's almost like a script.

We will never fully grasp what a logistical and supply nightmare the Civil War was for both sides and as a line Grunt you were lucky to get ammunition and a weapon that could actually be loaded and fired

Another forum member was just discussing how he found a huge number of dumped Minies that were assumed to have been a crate of 1000 cartridges that was discarded for whatever reason. And Minies measured as small as .570 and as large as over .580.....so possibly this batch was dumped because they came from a sketchy contractor that was just trying to get paid , and just sloppily cast bullets and never sized or inspected any of them.

I can't even imagine not only being in a battle armed with a Rifle-Musket but then pulling cartridges out of my box with bullets too big to even be loaded because I have some rushed , shoddy Contract 1861 pattern rifle made by a machine shop in an alley in Trenton NJ and cartridges with unsized Minies that are in the .580s.

So here we are, 150+ years later armed with mostly Italian repros of rifles that the average soldier was lucky to even be able to effectively load and discharge, and probably never even looked at the sights once trying to get the best accuracy out of them.

The bore on my original 1861 dated 61 Springfield will let a .580 Minie slip fit into the muzzle but I haven't fired it yet. It has strong rifling and doesn't appear to have muzzle wear

New shooters need to be aware that bore sizes of original and repro rifle-muskets are "nominal".

I fired this group at 50 yards, standing with the sling used as a "hasty sling " with my Pedersoli CS Richmond and .577 Minies, with 60 grains of 777 "3F" I opened in 2007 and I'm trying to use up.

It's not an Earth shattering group but shooting from a rest, the group at 100 wasn't much bigger. It just happens to be that Pedersoli makes their 1861's and P53's as pretty much European Muzzleloading Match Rifles for the "military Rifle-Musket class" and less so as reproductions for casual range popping or reenacting, and so they have nice out of the box triggers and good bores with no tight spots or tool chatter.

 

[Stantheman86]

"Questionable CCI caps".

Me thinks you're being overly generous.

CCI: manure Caps Incorporated.

If it's all you can get, the CCI caps work on Enfield type rifles. On repro Springfields , forget it , they suck.

 

[Madbro80]

I just got a Zoli from a GunBroker dealer for $400, they are sleepers

I had a Buffalo Hunter that shot very well

GunBroker has dozens of them but some of the sellers seem a little too optimistic with their prices

 

[Madbro80]

I just got a Zoli from a GunBroker dealer for $400, they are sleepers

I had a Buffalo Hunter that shot very well

GunBroker has dozens of them but some of the sellers seem a little too optimistic with their prices.

I just won a nice Zoli tonight from a local shop that does online auction. Snagged it for $220.
I used to be a reenactor & always had Euroarms Enfield muskets & a cook & brothers .58 carbine. This is my first Zoli. I don't have the time or resources to go back to reenacting but have missed the weaponry & am looking forward to getting to learn this gun & target shooting with it. Might even use it for deer come muzzleloader season.
Is there anything I should know about zolis compared to the Enfield's I had?