Accuracy via Changing Powder Brand

[Bob J]

Has anyone ever reached an accuracy plateau with Goex, then find that they improved their results with Swiss?

 

[jfaldo]

At $7.00 more per pound I guess I'll stay on the plateau :grin: Seriously though I shoot with guys that believe that if your not shooting Swiss than your just an amateur. Truth of the matter is that I shoot pretty good with Goex and would probably shoot really good with it if I was an old retired guy like most of them and had an unrestricted amount of hours shooting. Also I shoot a lot of powder (BPCR) and I can tell you there is differences between lots of the same manufactures powder.

 

[rodwha]

You could also try Olde Eynsford by Goex which is a mere dollar more than standard Goex at Grafs. It performs very much like Swiss but doesn't have the price tag. Many swear by it like they do Swiss.

I don't shoot for points and share my powder between my pistols and rifle. Standard Goex, and those like it, doesn't have the oomph for me so I use OE or T7. I expect my handguns to perform near .45 Colt levels of performance which the others can't do.

 

[George]

I'll be interested in the replies to this question, because I have never understood why that would be the case, what, exactly, could cause accuracy to change.

First problem is to understand what is meant by "accuracy". If a person says accuracy is better with one powder than another, or one lot than another, exactly what is the difference he is talking about? Elevation, windage, or both?

Spence

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

FWIW in my smoothbores, 3F Goex & Schuetzen shoot to the same point of impact. But the Schuetzen powdah cleans up in 1/3rd to 1/2 the time and patches.

But I only shoot up to 6-pounds a year, so what do I know ...

 

[Bob J]

I don't know the mechanism (or principle) at work, but I tried Swiss 1.5 f and 2f in a .54 that shoots very accurately with Goex 2f and 3f. It did not group well at all. Fine. I like Goex. I am now shooting my first Rice barrel with the round-bottom rifling. It's a .62 and having tried many combinations of patch and powder charge, both .600 and .610 balls, and with and without a wonder wad or extra patch as firewall, my best groups are with 50 grains 3f Goex and a chamois patch - fine for offhand practice. In the hunting load category, it does not like 70 - 80 - 90 grains of 2f, but gives acceptable 50 yard hunting groups (2.5 inch) with 110 2f Goex and a chamois patch. However, I am used to 1.5"cloverleafs at 50 yards with my .54. Maybe I ought to just live with the fact that I might not be able to shoot the .62 quite as accurately from the bench. The deer and hogs won't know the difference. But I am going to try the 1.5 f Swiss since I still have the can.

 

[jamesthomas]

Whats the thickness of your patch in the .62? Round bottom rifling requires a much thicker patch to make a good seal than when you have square bottom rifling.

 

[will5a1]

I can understand, in theory, why some powder might be more accurate than another, i.e. the more expensive brand X has more uniform grains and composition, and hence more consistent pressure than brand Y, so brand X should therefore shoot better.

My limited experience has turned out that some rifles seem to prefer GOEX, some OE, and some Swiss - no rhyme or reason to it as near as I can ascertain.

 

[George]

I can understand, in theory, why some powder might be more accurate than another, i.e. the more expensive brand X has more uniform grains and composition, and hence more consistent pressure than brand Y, so brand X should therefore shoot better.

It seems obvious that different formulations of powder, different particle size, different ratios of charcoal, sulfur and saltpetre can cause one brand of powder to be more powerful than another, so there would be a difference in velocity. Difference in velocity, though, causes only vertical changes in the trajectory, make one powder always shoot higher or lower than another. I know of nothing about that difference in powders which could cause changes in windage, make the point of impact shift right or left. That's why I asked what is meant by "accuracy". It seem a fair assumption when a man says one powder shoots more or less accurately, he's talking about group size.

Changing brands of powder might give you a shift in point of impact up or down, but it would be consistent, and there's no reason an accurate charge couldn't be worked up with the new powder. The fact that differences in velocity cause shots to go higher or lower doesn't mean that powder wouldn't give you the same small groups. I don't know of any reason group size should be effected at all.

One brand of powder can be manufactured better, more consistently, with better quality control, and you would expect that to mean less variation between lots of that powder. Each lot of any powder, though, should shoot to the same point of impact, either the same, higher or lower by a small amount than other lots. I've never found the difference to be of any practical concern in the field.

With any modern powder, I expect quality control is good enough that you would never get significant variation of velocity between charges from the same can.

I have mixed together the remnants of several cans/lots/ages of powder and found my rifles to still shoot within angle of squirrel.

Spence

 

[Bob J]

Whats the thickness of your patch in the .62? Round bottom rifling requires a much thicker patch to make a good seal than when you have square bottom rifling.

armakiller - the chamois I am using varies from .015 to .025, yet groups better than the .024 mattress ticking I tried. 90 and 100 grain 3f loads burned thru the chamois at times, while 110 gr 2f does not.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

It would depend on the velocity variation. The same weight projectile launched at the same velocity will be pulled downward the same amount during time of flight....so for whatever reason, if one gets enough variation in velocities, and the distance to the target is significantly long to allow the human eye to note the impact differences....the bullets have different flight times to the target = more or less time to have gravity work, thus variable groups.

It's possible depending on the granulation, and the powder measure used, one brand might pour more consistently than another, which could cause a rather obvious grouping problem if the variation in velocity was significant.

This is all nice on paper...other variables with black powder kick in....perhaps a powder that burns more thoroughly produces less residual crud, thus consistent friction in subsequent shots = more consistent velocity. Does one shooter's wiping of a bore add enough moisture to the next shot to reduce it's burn and effect velocity? etc etc

With Goex from a bench my rifles shoot better than I can from an non-bench position of any sort, so...no reason for me to go to another other than GOEX....besides, if they ever ban importation of powder, I'd like a company inside the USA to still be making the stuff, so I'll buy the GOEX product and do my part to keep them in business.

LD

 

[Artificer]

Spence,

Though I am not a chemist or powder manufacturer, I have spoken with many in the industry over the years.

One thing we don't think much about with Black Powder is the burn rate of the powder. I am referring to both speed and uniformity of the burn rate because it gives more consistent gas pressure acting against the projectile. Uniformity is probably more important than speed with Black Powder guns. This can vary due to chemical composition of the powder and even what material the charcoal is made from. Inconsistent burn rate, or even less consistent burn rates will cause groups to open up both horizontally and vertically.

Rate of twist in a black powder barrel will also determine that some or one powder is better than others for accuracy - because of the difference in uniformity of burn rates.

Gus

 

[George]

Inconsistent burn rate, or even less consistent burn rates will cause groups to open up both horizontally and vertically.

We understand that the interaction of gravity and time can cause differences in vertical displacement, but what forces would cause horizontal displacement?

Spence

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'm sure the answer is "yes". But, then, satisfactory results differ with what the shooter wants and expects.
I remember the days when many of the old-old timers would almost weep when certain lot numbers of DuPont powders were no longer available. When forced to use a different lot number (still DuPont) they were back at the benches working up a new 'best' load for their rifles.
In the past year I switched from Goex to Swiss in the rifle I am now using for club shoots. This rifle has been a consistent winner for many years. But, with the Swiss, I cannot get a decent group with the same charges I was using with Goex. So bad I cannot find paper at 100 yards from the bench. :shocked2: As time permits, I will be going to the range for some serious new load work ups.
That said, when shooting Swiss I perceive a sharper recoil than with Goex or Schuetzen. I know it is a hotter powder but I suspect it produces an almost instant pressure peak on ignition compared to the others that (probably) peak slower and give a more gentle push than the Swiss. Dunno really. :idunno: That's gut perception, not scientific analysis.
Yep, in this game, changes change things.

 

[Bob J]

but I suspect it produces an almost instant pressure peak on ignition compared to the others that (probably) peak slower and give a more gentle push than the Swiss. Dunno really. :idunno: That's gut perception, not scientific analysis.
Yep, in this game, changes change things.

Which is why, in my opinion, the Goex 3f is burning thru patches and the "fliers" are really out there. The recovered patches are near perfect (actually could reuse them) when I switched to 2f and overall groups improved. End story may be: Goex 2f is the best for full power hunting loads in this sixty-two.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

What's your "full power" load for that? For my smoothie it's 70 grains.

LD

 

[Bob J]

With 2f, I started around 70 grains and shot up to 120. Best accuracy with 2f is 110 grains. So I consider 110 grains 2f to be the hunting load.

 

[Artificer]

Inconsistent burn rate, or even less consistent burn rates will cause groups to open up both horizontally and vertically.

We understand that the interaction of gravity and time can cause differences in vertical displacement, but what forces would cause horizontal displacement?

Spence

GOOD question! Since I am not a mechanical engineer, I can only describe it in Non Technical Terms. We know a PRB does not completely seal the bore in a rifle as the PRB travels down the bore. When the powder burns more consistently, the gas pressure is more consistent and thus pushes the PRB more "smoothly and evenly." This means the rotation on the PRB is more consistent in the rifle barrel and as it exits the muzzle. The more uniform the rotation or spin of the projectile as it exits the muzzle, the less vertical dispersion of successive shots in a group.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I'm sure the answer is "yes". But, then, satisfactory results differ with what the shooter wants and expects.
I remember the days when many of the old-old timers would almost weep when certain lot numbers of DuPont powders were no longer available. When forced to use a different lot number (still DuPont) they were back at the benches working up a new 'best' load for their rifles.
In the past year I switched from Goex to Swiss in the rifle I am now using for club shoots. This rifle has been a consistent winner for many years. But, with the Swiss, I cannot get a decent group with the same charges I was using with Goex. So bad I cannot find paper at 100 yards from the bench. :shocked2: As time permits, I will be going to the range for some serious new load work ups.
That said, when shooting Swiss I perceive a sharper recoil than with Goex or Schuetzen. I know it is a hotter powder but I suspect it produces an almost instant pressure peak on ignition compared to the others that (probably) peak slower and give a more gentle push than the Swiss. Dunno really. :idunno: That's gut perception, not scientific analysis.
Yep, in this game, changes change things.

I remember others and my own experience, of your emboldened text, from the early to mid 70's when using different lots of Dupont at Friendship.

When the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team found out that only Swiss Powder was available for the Championships in Wedgnock, UK in 1996, MANY of those shooters were "in a tizzy" because the available Swiss powders then did not shoot as good as Goex in MANY Of the Team's Guns. They had to do extensive testing with different powder charges, bullet diameters, patch material and even lubes to get CLOSE to or similar accuracy they were used to with Goex, when we went back to Wedgnock for the World Championships in 1998.

Gus

 

[Jim C]

:thumbsup: .....In my 40 plus yrs of burning the stuff I have never used anything other than Goex and with all of my rifles I have always been able to find that perfect combination of powder charge/patch thickness/ball size/lube that will produce minute of squirrel head accuracy. Just like you I see no need to change brands of powder now nor ever.