accuracy

[olskool]

i heard a man on a video that i believe is knowledgeable on BP guns. he said he used no patch on his smoothbore, as they of course didn't in the past. he said it wasn't needed because the ball was centered down the bore by the gas from the explosion. i do not have a smoothbore gun but this seems plausible to me. one of these days i will have one, just never ran across one to buy, would this be correct? i have a friend who does have one and we will eventually do a test on this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Mulebrain]

Will be interesting to see the responses on this

So I typed in smoothbore rifle accuracy and a PDF file popped up and it's titled "The Rifle-Musket vs. The Smoothbore Musket, a Comparison of the Effectiveness of the Two Types of Weapons Primarily at Short Ranges."

Should be an interesting read

 

[Rifleman1776]

We don't know that patches were never used back in the day. Today it is a matter of choice. Wat works for ye is wat ye should do.

 

[rchas]

Depends completely on the gun. Some will shoot better with a patched ball, others with a bare ball. Load development for a smooth bore can be complicated.

I have a .62 that that shoots well with a .600 ball and a .18 patch. I have another.62 that hates patches and demands a .610 bare ball. You have to experiment.

 

[russellshaffer]

Will be interesting to see the responses on this

So I typed in smoothbore rifle accuracy and a PDF file popped up and it's titled "The Rifle-Musket vs. The Smoothbore Musket, a Comparison of the Effectiveness of the Two Types of Weapons Primarily at Short Ranges."

Should be an interesting read

That is a very interesting read indeed. Battlefield accuracy is much different from hunting or target use. Keeping in mind that on a battlefield a wound is a desirable outcome - the enemy doesn't have to die to be out of action.

 

[tenngun]

My Centermark recommended an 80 grain charge with 100 max. Shooting a PRB I found less was more.
Howsomever Dualist 54 did some experimentation with large charges. And by going up with bare ball he got better groups. 11 Bang Bang channel even went higher and got good groups
It’s an idea that makes sense, but making sense ain’t proof, unless we did a big bunch of experiments across several platforms
Play with it yourself when you get your real gun( sic) you’ll find a load you like.
And it sure is fun looking for it.

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

It is all part of the sport.......try "every which way" as the song goes! Olskool: Let us know your results....

 

[Grenadier1758]

The theory of the plasma gas from ignition creating a buffer of high pressure uniformly around the ball has been mentioned before. The proof of that theory is still not all that convincing. What effect does placement of the sprue have on the uniform distribution of pressure around the ball? How much does the difference between the diameter of the ball and the diameter of the barrel make on the so-called plasma cushion? I'm not sure just how one could test the plasma theory.

So, for me, I will continue to use some sort of patching. Bor my King's Musket, it will be the patching provided by the paper cartridge. For my 20 gauge, it will be most likely be a nest of tow surrounding an almost bore sized ball or a modestly compressible lubricated drill cloth patch around a ball about 0.015" smaller in diameter than the bore.

I will admit that I get better groups on target with larger charges of powder (85 grains of 2Fg) than I get with 65 grains of 2Fg. I also must admit that I need more practice.

 

[Kevin]

I like a wet patch thick enough that it doesn't burn through, mostly so I can shoot multiple times with less powder accurately without having to swab the bore. Most of my smoothbores are just as accurate bare ball, but, you've got to put some fire behind that ball to get it to fly straight. I don't need all that recoil and fowling to deal with. I'm mostly an offhand plate plinker. 60grs of 2F is a whole lot more enjoyable than 110 grs. and 60grs will kill a hog or a deer just as dead.

 

[Clark Badgett]

We don't know that patches were never used back in the day. Today it is a matter of choice. Wat works for ye is wat ye should do.

Well, to be honest. If we had 100% confirmation that it never happened, someone would come along and say this exact thing. There is at least 1 written account of wrapping the ball in well greased leather to friction fit to provide better accuracy. From ENGLAND.

 

[tenngun]

Well, to be honest. If we had 100% confirmation that it never happened, someone would come along and say this exact thing. There is at least 1 written account of wrapping the ball in well greased leather to friction fit to provide better accuracy. From ENGLAND.

Do you know it and when?
I have seen one from 1847, but talked about as a regular practice

 

[TCMonts]

I Intend to try it in some of my choked guns some day.

 

[Brokennock]

Despite some of the people for whom history is subjective and presumptive,,,, there is no evidence for use of a patch when shooting roundball from a smoothbore in the 18th century. There is reference to it,,, in a certain geographical area,,, in the early 19th century.
A patch is not needed, one of my smoothbores shoots its best groups with wads and no patch.
However, I don't buy this "cone of gas" theory some (one individual in particular) espouse. I see now way for a combustible material, restricted inside of a tube, that has a forward surface area the same size as the tube,,,, to somehow become a cone when it burns. Essential going from a leading edge like this, |||| , to this, <《
Every time I ask it's leading proponent on another forum about it,, he goes silent.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Despite some of the people for whom history is subjective and presumptive,,,, there is no evidence for use of a patch when shooting roundball from a smoothbore in the 18th century.

Ahhhhhhhh ... and you'd be wrong! In the 18th and 19th century , writers like Col. George Hanger, specified sewing balls in leather for speedy loading in his double-barreled shotgun. Going back even further, even to the 16th century, and patched loads (not just tow or such) were used with the earlier wheellocks and matchlocks.

See posts 44 and 48 here for quite the discussion and pictures:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/for-the-matchlock-fans.117027/page-3#post-1689695
All that info originated from the late Michael Tromler who knew more about the older pre-flintlock arms than anyone else now still living ... the point is ... one can never say 'never' ...

 

[Brokennock]

Ahhhhhhhh ... and you'd be wrong! In the 18th and 19th century , writers like Col. George Hanger, specified sewing balls in leather for speedy loading in his double-barreled shotgun. Going back even further, even to the 16th century, and patched loads (not just tow or such) were used with the earlier wheellocks and matchlocks.

See posts 44 and 48 here for quite the discussion and pictures:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/for-the-matchlock-fans.117027/page-3#post-1689695
All that info originated from the late Michael Tromler who knew more about the older pre-flintlock arms than anyone else now still living ... the point is ... one can never say 'never' ...

I didn't say never.
But, I should have been more specific.
I was mainly referring to fowling pieces and trade guns. And Hanger's reference doesn't indicate that this was a widespread common practice.
I did however specify 18th century, not pre-flintlock.
It is interesting that the practice didn't seem to carry over from matchsticks to flintlock fowling guns with any kind of commonality.

I have often questioned the use of a patch at the time in smoothrifles. Given that these would have been built, purchased, and used, where rifles were common (talking about the period before they spread north) and patches were being used in rifles, I can't help but suppose that a rifle style patched ball would have been used in a smoothrifle at the time.

 

[Josephg]

If no patch, how is a RB kept on the powder?

 

[rchas]

If no patch, how is a RB kept on the powder?

Thin card on top of the ball., just as you would do for a shot load.

 

[Clark Badgett]

If no patch, how is a RB kept on the powder?

Wad of paper or tow or grass, etc.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Do you know it and when?
I have seen one from 1847, but talked about as a regular practice

See post #14. That is where I saw it mentioned.

 

[Sir Boniface Harrison]

30 years ago I had a Parker Hale 2 band Enfield and an Indian built 3 band , which I bought as smooth bores used for re enacting (ACW, Union infantry). When I drifted out of the hobby back in '95 I foolishly sold them: water under the bridge. Anyway, on live shoots I found that patching the ball had a measurable increase in accuracy. Over 50 yards the groupings were about 2ft 6 inch diameter without a patch, and this decreased by about 8 inches when the ball was patched. Not much, and this was not by any means a scientific test, but it was a noticeable improvement. Am I right in assuming that in a military situation, the ball was rammed down with the paper of the cartridge, thus forming a patch of sorts?