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acid etching vs engraving

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Chuck Yoder

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I am wanting to do some etching with nitric acid and not sure where to start. There is lots of different strengths to choose from but no information that I can find. Does anyone have any ideas where to start or would I be better off to get some graveing tools and learn to engrave ? I want to sign my ML barrels and locks and even a patch box. I guess I just want to pearsonalize them a little. Does anyone have any good ideas ?
 
Forget acid etching and spend a little time learning simple engraving. It will look better because you can easily vary line depth and width and be historically correct.
 
Hi Chuck,
Forget etching and learn to engrave your name or initials. Etching with acid has its uses in gun decoration. Its been used since 16th century (at least) usually to remove background areas that were often gilded. The acid creates a pourous or textured surface. That is why it is not very good for lettering. The edges of letters will be slightly fuzzy. Lettering looks much better cut rather than etched. Practice engraving script letters, which hide errors much better than Roman or other block letters. That is why most makers of longrifles that signed their work used script letters, most were not very skilled engravers. You can also buy stamps to use on barrels but an engraved signature usually looks much better.

dave
 
Thanks Dave, i think I have a better idea the direction I need to go now. Do you have an
idea where to go next. besides maybe getting a video or beginner book to get started. I want to get started right so I don't waste a lot of money.
 
In my opinion etching is harder than engraving and requires the same degree of precision I do both . The very first thing you need to do is learn to sharpen a square graver and a flat graver. For the fastest and least expensive way to learn I recommend the Lindsay system of sharpening. Don’t listen to amateurs advise.
Learn from the pros and it will save you years of headaches mistakes and wasted money. Buy commercially made graver blanks. You only need a few and they will last you for years. You need to spend a few hundred dollars so get use to the idea. It will pay off big. Some will tell you all you need is a hardened nail and a stone club. Don’t be fooled engravers were using fine tools 300 years ago. It’s easy to tell the ones who didn’t by looking at their work. http://airgraver.com/graver_point_geometry.htm
http://jwh-flintlocks.net/ufdemo2.jpg
 
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Hi Chuck,
Jerry is a world-class engraver and gunmaker and his advice is spot on. What often happens when someone tries to learn engraving is they think it is hard (it is to some extent) and are not confident they can do it. Consequently, they don't want to spend much on the needed tools and accessories because they are afraid they will fail and the investment wasted. So they go as cheap as possible and failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I wrote a short essay on learning to engrave for another forum and I will summarize a couple of points I made in it here. To start, you will need the following basic tools:

3 blank square gravers made of highspeed steel, glensteel, or momax cobalt. (These can be bought from Brownell's, Rio Grande Jewelry supply, or from Steve Lindsay's website)

3 handles for the gravers (you can make them from wood)

1 chasing hammer (from the suppliers above)

A sharpening system (I recommend the detail, universal, and flat templates from Steve Lindsay along with his diamond and ceramic stones. That is all you need to start with. There are other solutions but Lindsay's is of professional quality and relatively inexpensive. Whatever, you do don't buy a "Crocker" sharpening jig, they are a waste of money)

1 leather sharpening strop primed with a polishing compound like simichrome (you can make this from heavy leather and wood)

A sturdy vise that can turn

Good lighting that can be brought close to the work.

Some sort of magnification (optivisors work pretty well).

Mild steel plates for practicing.

The only gravers you need to start are a tiny square, a larger square, and a small flat, all mounted as chisels rather than hand gravers. With those 3 gravers you can copy 90% of the work done by firearm engravers from 1500-1830's. My list assumes you likely will want to learn to engrave more than just a signature. If not, you can get by with just one square graver mounted in a chisel handle and a chasing hammer. However, regardless of your objective, you must sharpen the graver properly and you really can't take any short-cuts with that. Lindsay's sharpening system will guide you through grinding and sharpening the gravers. He has a good tutorial explaining how to sharpen. You must learn that,learn to do it efficiently, and sharpen your tools often or you will never succeed. There are some pretty good DVDs available that can help you learn to engrave. Lynton McKenzie's is good and I think Jack Brooks also has one. I don't have time to launch into a tutorial but I will advise you to first learn to cut a nice, even straight line. Don't worry about letters, script, or scrolls when beginning. Just cut good straight lines and then move on to the other tasks. When you begin to work on letters and scrolls, you will need to learn how to transfer a design or signature to the metal for cutting. That is not a trivial task because a nice design drawn imprecisely on the metal will yield lousy engraving. I think the DVDs I mentioned have segments showing how to do that.

If you are serious about making fine guns, then engraving is an important skill to learn. You do not have to be a master at it like Jerry, but you should be able to cut simple clean designs to dress up your metal parts. In my opinion, a metal patchbox without some engraving is not very attractive. Keep in mind, that few longrifle makers could produce engraving that even matched mediocre work done in contemporary Europe.

dave
 
Thanks Jerry and Dave, You have been a big help. Once I get started I may need to contact you if that would be ok in case I need some help .
 
Hi there

Recently I purchased Dremel engraving tool from ebay. Cost me like 20.00 with free shipping. I have never done any engraving in my life, but I decided to give it a try and I must say, it came out if not gorgeus, at least interesting. Once I figure how to upload photos here I will post them. I have .50 cal Investarms Hawken, so nothing as fancy as some of mountain man here shoot, but still a nice rifle. Any advice on posting pics?
 
Not to hurt feelings, but that dremel is not real engraving. There is a vast difference. Please don't try it on a gun, you only ruin it. Real engraving is done with special chisles, either hand pushed, hammered or mechanically powered. That Dremel only makes tiny dimples in the metal, whereas engraving chisles remove metal. Oh, I see now where you already have. :(
 
No offense taken. I already did it on my gun. I like it. I know it is not the greatest art but it really came out pretty good. After pics if there will be a big no from you guys I just buy new brass. LOL. FYI this kind of "engraving" I can afford. Anyhow, when I post pics you'll see it's not the worst fxxx up you've seen before (e.g. painting flintlock glossy pink). Thanks for the information. BTW, any sources where to buy real tools?
Thanks
 
It won't be what others want to see on their guns but if you are happy with the results, IMO that's the main thing that counts.
 
I've done very little engraving, but have a couple of years experience with etching. Though it's a different animal, it does require a skill level equal to engraving to master (and I'm no master :surrender: ).

Timing in the acid bath is crucial, you need to wear a stop watch around your neck. In between baths, you have to check with a lighted magnifying glass. Then you need to "stop out" the areas that are etched enough, which requires a very very small brush under the magnifyer, then continue the process with the rest of the piece, stopping out more and more after each bath. Too much time in the bath will cause undercut, which will eventually cause the lines to collapse. And that acid is NASTY! If you're nose starts itching, you're not going to have enough time to take off your golves and scratch it before the piece needs to be rinsed. It's a long drawn out process, and not something you want to learn while etching a good gun. :grin: Bill
 
There are are a number of us that could lead you through the beginner stages of engraving, but we would be typing a book. It just isn't that easy to tell you how to do it, and have you understand. I would suggest that you buy, or rent the Lynton McKenzie DVD's on engraving. He breaks it all down to a simple easy to understand form, and keeps the tools relatively simple. From the pics, you seem to already have a talent for drawing, which is very important. Lynton was a super fine engraver, and used the simple hammer and chisle method.
 
Chuck, I don't think I have any particular talent, but I do have a real passion for what I decide to do, and I think that alone can make up for a lot of deficits in other areas. The picture below is what I started out with, gravers made from concrete nails and carrige bolts, and a book by Joe Meeks. What I got from the book, mostly, sharpening is very critical, and the sharpening itself, which was and is still confusing to me the way he explaines it. What I got from making the gravers, was learning about tempering steel along with a whole lot more, including patience. :grin:
DSCN1015.jpg


I guess my point is that you don't need all the latest gagetry to get started, just some determination, and a good attitude. This picture is not the first thing I engraved, but it is one of the first things I engraved for my first long gun. At the time I called it carving.
DSCN0056.jpg

I have since, bought a few GRS gravers, and have to admit they are better than my home made, when it comes to holding an edge and not chipping. Like anything else, you can try and excel in this discipline like Jerry or learn just enough to do the simple "frontier" engraving that is commonly seen on most of the early guns. I think Zonie is right. I am happy with my results, but not satisfied, and I consider that an asset. Keep the faith, Good luck.
Robby
 
Wow! Now this is really beautiful. Are you considering any orders? Pm me if you do. I may be interested. This piece is super. Mine cannot be compared with yours. Great job man.
 
Robby is a bit too modest, and a fine artist. Jerry Huddleston is a world class master. Neither one is going to do much more with a Dremel than you did. Get the McKenzie DVD's. From what I saw, you may have a hidden talent that needs to be released. I consider drawing as the most important part of engraving. You seem to have that, at least in the rough. No matter how well you can cut lines, the result is only as good as the layout, and I have seen poor executions that looked decent because the layout was very good. I struggled for years with engraving, and still am struggling because I don't do it often enough to get good, but those tapes helped me make a jump from poor, to acceptable as far as doing early American gunsmith quality, which is not always great. Some were very good, but most were only acceptable for that time. Here's some of my work, and the tools I did it with. I believe you can do much better if you put your mind to it. Here's a place to go to get further info. http://www.igraver.com/

pennyknife426_640x480.jpg


pennyknife146_640x480.jpg


pennyknife181_640x480.jpg


pennyknife192_640x480.jpg


pennyknife182_640x480.jpg


pennyknife148_640x480.jpg
 
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