Actual experience only please! Fast twist rate for 58 cal

[Thingamajiggy]

I like what you're doing, may not get the speed you want but definitely will be a thumper. Interested in your findings, I'm kind of The same, really like the .54 but have 1 .58 currently and 1 on the way. Will be PRB shooters, especially the 1(1:56), other is 1:48, an investarms flinter.

 

[TDM]

@chorizo, you’ve most likely already gone down this road, but have you talked to any of the custom mold/mould makers for options in your .58?

 

[chorizo]

A 580 grain bullet @ 1500 fps? Like Sun City said, you are in for a "good learning lesson".

How do you know, have you ever shot one? I did yesterday from a bench and the recoil isn't bad. It wasn't 1500 fps...more like 1480fps. An 1 3/8 oz (590 grains) high speed (1450 fps) Kent waterfowl load is very close to it in recoil.

https://www.ducks.org/hunting/shooting-tips/kent-cartridge-guide-to-waterfowl-loads
It is obvious neither of the two of you have never done it and do not know what you are talking about or you both are used to shooting 22lr and 32 cal with 35 grains of powder.

Please, as I asked IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A REAL EXPERIENCE other than both of your obvious armchair keyboard knowledge, go start your own opinion thread where you can pontificate in your vast untried, unproven baseless knowledge and leave the comments here for folks who have actually done things.

 

[longcruise]

@chorizo regarding the nipple problem, might be simpler to retap for a 255×28 nipple if there is enough meat there. Larger are also available.

are you using platinum lined nipples?

 

[chorizo]

@chorizo, you’ve most likely already gone down this road, but have you talked to any of the custom mold/mould makers for options in your .58?

No, but I have looked, but I don't want to get into the casting business, which might be the fatal flaw in this whole project.

So far the 54 cal can and will do just about everything I am asking of the 58 cal at 125 yards, (except make a 58 cal entry hole) so it might be a fool's errand to ask this out of a 58 cal without custom casting my bullets.

But hey, it gave me something to do while the snow was flying. I might have to settle on having it only reach out to 100 yards.

Now if I can only get the recoil sensitive folks who have never shot anything bigger than a 32 cal with 35 grains of powder from commenting about things they know nothing about so folks with good ideas, like yours, can comment maybe somebody will have an eureka moment.

 

[chorizo]

@chorizo regarding the nipple problem, might be simpler to retap for a 255×28 nipple if there is enough meat there. Larger are also available.

are you using platinum lined nipples?

Good ideas!

I like the Treso as I use musket nipples and I have already got an insert coming to reline the thread hole. Simple process and cheap to do. That keeps me from having to search for non-standard musket nipples which are almost impossible to find.

It isn't an erosion issue on the nipple so platinum wouldn't help. It is a corroded thread on the breech issue...it blew the nipple clean out. An oversize or an insert is the only solution for that and I have opted for the insert.

Black-Phosphate Steel Thread-Locking Insert, Easy-To-Install, 1/4"-28 Thread Size, 3/8"-16 Tap Size
90259A136

 

[longcruise]

It isn't an erosion issue on the nipple so platinum wouldn't help. It is a corroded thread on the breech issue. oversize or an insert is the only solution for that and I have opted for the insert.

Yeah, I get that but wondered if you used them for the extra nipple life. I've never used them but did find in my "Conical Period" that I was into hammer blow back territory in less than 50 shots.

 

[chorizo]

Yeah, I get that but wondered if you used them for the extra nipple life. I've never used them but did find in my "Conical Period" that I was into hammer blow back territory in less than 50 shots.

Tresos have a good life so I figure even with the heavy loads I should get 50, but 50 is a lot considering it will be a hunting gun, not a recreational shooting gun. Once I develop the loads, I won't be shooting more than 15 per year on a nipple. Confirm sight in, hunt with it. Change a nipple once per year...cheap insurance.

Others that are shooting heavier loads with conicals are getting 50 shots per Treso nipples.

 

[brushblind]

Just curious, at what velocity could you push a soft lead conical before you need to resize and paper patch the bullet? Also wondering how to get 1500-1600 fps out of the 24" barrel with BP? Let us know how it goes!

 

[TDM]

Now if I can only get the recoil sensitive folks who have never shot anything bigger than a 32 cal with 35 grains of powder from commenting about things they know nothing about

You are correct!!! I myself can handle 40 grains in a .32 with no problems.

 

[chorizo]

Just curious, at what velocity could you push a soft lead conical before you need to resize and paper patch the bullet? Also wondering how to get 1500-1600 fps out of the 24" barrel with BP? Let us know how it goes!

See chronographed results below I am getting it out of a 21" barrel

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...arbine-velocity-results-chronographed.159742/
Use Triple 7 and FFFg See this calculator for BP. If you use Triple 7 add 8 to 10% more on velocity and pressure. I have found that to be quite accurate P-Max black powder internal ballistics

Also see accuracy results below:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...acy-results-with-the-thumper-carbines.161070/

 

[chorizo]

For those wondering about paper patching, you need to talk to @Idaho Ron or @SDSmlf I don't paper patch and I buy my bullets.002 oversized (except for the REAL and T/C Maxi hunters & Balls)

I lube mine with a lube I developed after reading Idaho Lewis lube work. SDSmlf is going to test that lube against some known lubes he has and against the Idaho Lewis Modified NASA lube.

I can tell you I am getting ZERO leading using the lube I developed and I am pushing those conicals fast in fast twist barrels

 

[tenngun]

Sam Falada made a .58 for a six hundred grain thick skirted minie custom designed for the gun. He shot it on a hundred and eighty grain three f charge.
He took it to Africa and his guide wasn’t sure it would work. On paper it was almost a .458 magnum in performance
After testing the guide said it ‘should be bloody adequate’ me thinks that’s an understatement

 

[chorizo]

Sam Falada made a .58 for a six hundred grain thick skirted minie custom designed for the gun. He shot it on a hundred and eighty grain three f charge.
He took it to Africa and his guide wasn’t sure it would work. On paper it was almost a .458 magnum in performance
After testing the guide said it ‘should be bloody adequate’ me thinks that’s an understatement

No, it was Val Forgett, jr not Sam Falada He used a 610 grain bullet over 180 grains of FFFG in one gun. That was the one determined to be "Bloody adequate" The other gun used 120 grains of FFFG with the same 610 gr bullet. Adequate is what I am looking for...I don't need "bloody" adequate Now that..610 grain bullet over 180 grains of powder would truly be "a lesson" as some of the recoil sensitive fellows keep pointing out. I have shot some serious African Express guns...The 416 Rigby in the light sabatti sxs express or a 450 Rigby in the Arrieta sxs express rifles are both eye openers and are about the limit of my stupidity.

I have those bullets available to me and have some that a fellow member casted for me. If I ever get to hunt griz in the lower 48, that will be the bullet I use.

Article below:


610 gr on left 510 gr on right

 

[tenngun]

No, it was Val Forgett, jr not Sam Falada He used a 610 grain bullet over 180 grains of FFFG in one gun. That was the one determined to be "Bloody adequate" The other gun used 120 grains of FFFG with the same 610 gr bullet. Adequate is what I am looking for...I don't need "bloody" adequate

I have those bullets available to me and have some that a fellow member casted for me.

Article below:
View attachment 207009

610 gr on left 510 gr on right

View attachment 207010

Yup
Old timers getting me

 

[tenngun]

I recall an African hunter who shot some cannon sized shoulder gun who said after the shot it was a race to see who got up first him or the elephant

 

[chorizo]

As I have said in previous posts, maybe in other threads, this quest is a fusion of Val Forgett, Idaho Ron, Idaho Lewis, SDSmlf experience and ideas, the jaeger rifle and my concept of a hard hitting, flat shooting, open sight hunting carbine with Mr. Bobby Hoyt doing the barrel work.

It may or may not pan out for the 58 cal, but has worked in the 54 cal. I still have two 22" carbine barrels to try, one in 54 and another in 58, both with 1:32 twist.

Again the parameter goals are:

Around a 7lb open sight percussion gun with a 22" to 24" barrel that shoots a 3" or less group at 100 yards that has no more drop than 3" at 125 yards with a 100 yard sight-in and retains at least 1100 (prefer 1300) ftlbs of energy at 125 yards. Not asking much

 

[chorizo]

This 58 cal project is going on hold. There just isn't enough metal to install a liner, the cost of a machinist to do it and the fact that the 54 cals are giving me what I want AND I can get another barrel bored out for less than repairing this one means it is going on the broken toys pile for now and I will concentrate on the 54 cal.

I also have a 58 cal 22" barrel coming, so I will wait for it to pick up working on the 58 cal project.