Advice on gun to start with . . .

[bigbadben]

So, bear with me as this will be kind of one of those "I'm new to this and looking for advice" posts.

I've shot and hunted for years. A while back I bought a TC Black Diamond in-line just to have something to hunt the MZ season with. But I've never really liked the thing. It's smelly, a pain to clean, and has never shot very well. And add to that the bizzare historical irony that is the in-line and it's just never a gun I've had any enthusiasm for.

But I'm looking for a new winter project, and have always thought I would get into traditional muzzleloading at some point. My questions are threefold: first, I want to shoot a truely traditional gun. So things like the T/C Hawken's don't really appeal to me as they have the modern sights. I want to shoot something with a patched ball. And I would kind of rather it be a flintlock, though I have concerns that I might be asking for trouble. I want to hunt with it, and the MZ season here in VT is in December -so it's always snowy and wet. But in general I really want a gun that looks and feels just like something a guy would have carried 150+ years ago. (Then I want to kill a deer with it.)

So I guess my first two questions are whether it's unwise to start with a flintlock, and who makes a good 1/66 rifle to start with.

My last question has to do with where I want to end up with this. Sometime in the next year or two I want to spend some money (maybe around $1200) and get a nice but simple custom Kentucky-style rifle with really good wood. I can't decide whether I should get a $300 traditions rifle now, or just wait a while and order the gun I really want. Since I'm new to this I'm kind of thinking that getting a cheap one to work with might be good as making mistakes on a $300 gun would hurt less than a beautiful custom one. Thoughts? Am I likely to make bad mistakes on my first gun or is this pretty straightforward?

Thanks in advance for your help. On the last note, can anyone recommend good custom smiths that I should talk to? I'm looking to make a rifle that's simple. I don't want fancy and don't really need a lot of metalwork or carving on it. But I want it to have really nice wood.

Ben

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hi Ben,
There are several guns available, some good, some not so good.
I have several custom rifles, of various design.
Thompson Center has good pieces, not so traditional, A & H have good prices, sadly to their demise, and lastly, Lyman GPR guns are quite traditional, great shooters, fair price, and can be customized, to a very fine looking rifle, for well under the $400 mark.
Also the GPR .54 flint is much medicine, on most North American game.
If you draw file out, all the wording on the barrel, put traditional sights on the barrel, pour a nose cap, you will have a fine looking rifle.
On one of the earlier threads one of the guys posted a picture of his work...FANTASTIC! I can't remember the thread, but perhaps someone can refresh my memory.
I hope this helps. Best Regards
Old Ford

 

[szihn]

Well BigBad, I would have to say that "most folks" go through a process of getting some "entry level gun", then go to something fairly nice, then to a good comercial rifle, and finally end up with a hand made rifle.
If you look at the total expense of all the guns, and all the things that go with each gun, you will usually find that they should have "started out with what they ended up with" If you know that you want a good flintlock rifle, then I would advise you to get one right off the bat. Don't compromise on quality.
Flintlock hunting rifles are very good for shooting and hunting IF you get a good one. I have made muzzleloaders since I was 12 years old (really!) and I have killed a lot of game with them. I hunt with one of my own 62 caliber flintlock rifles here in Wyoming, and I have done just fine, even in snowstorms.
I make muzzleloaders to earn my living, and I can tell you faithfully that they are not a rifle that you have to feel is some great handicap to shoot or hunt with.
Now, only a fool will try to tell you that any muzzleloader is "as good" as a mondern rifle in it's forgivingness and reliability. If they were, the bolt action, lever action, pump action, and auto-loader would not be what we see in the stores. But muzzleloading is not about "being the best" in the technical way. It's about tradition and enjoyment. That's the reason we have archery equipemnt too. It's about the extra chalenge and the connection with an earlier time.

Sure,...... the "business men" are always going to try to sell you something "new and improved" and miss the entire point. (to them the entire point is just the bottom line) These "business men" will sell plactic stocked in-lines and modern scopes. They will sell "bows and arrows" with levers, wheels, cams, lazers, scopes, and so forth.
Is there something "wrong' with that? Not really. Any weapon that's effective and humane for killing game is ok with me. What I object to is the fact that these people seem to think that they should have special privilages to hunt with them, and their own special season. But in most states if you want to shoot a single shot Ruger #1 rifle, or use a iron sighted revolver, you have to use them in the regualr rifle season. Now these weapons have no advantage over the modern inline, (and in the case of the 44 magnum with iron sights, it may not have much of an advantage at all over the newest and most modern "bows and arrows".
However, you have to use a 4" 44 mag or a Ruger #1, or an 1874 Sharps in the "modern gun season. Right?
I hope you see my point here.
If you have the heart felt desire to have a good, well made flintlock, and to hunt with it as your great great great great grandfather might have, and to have the joy of knowing it's the way is should be, don't spend the money over and over trying to get there. Just start there! You will not be sorry. You will then have a weapon that you can be truly proud of, and something that is special to bring home the venison with, as opposed to what the "Wal-Mart crowd" will be doing.
The cost you spoke of is realistic, and will get you a good hunting rifle, with a good barrel and a good lock.
Good shooting and good hunting.
Steve Zihn
Shoshoni Wyoming

 

[WV MZL HUNTER]

:applause: I AGREE, I have a few muzzleloaders and I shoot one.I should have got one that I wanted years ago. :hatsoff:

 

[Runner]

Ok, lets ask a few more questions first.

Do you have access to a place to buy black powder locally? If not, then you have to order it and pay the hazmat fee to have it shipped. If you don't have access locally, you will have to get 5 pounds at a time. What are the local regs on keeping and storing black powder? Flintlocks require real black.

Do you have a place to practice regularly? Flintlocks take a bit more practice to use and stay on top of in the beginning.

If both answers are yes, then you need a fine rifle to make friends with.

 

[AeroncaTAL]

On one of the earlier threads one of the guys posted a picture of his work...FANTASTIC! I can't remember the thread, but perhaps someone can refresh my memory

That might have been me:
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/198692/[/url]

I'm still in the process of finishing the metal on my GPR, but I did shoot it recently. I'm new at the black powder game, but I was impressed with the handling of the Lyman. It fits me good, the balance is great and I can't complain of the grouping out of a brand new barrel.
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/198694/[/url]

I would highly recommend the Lyman.

Scott

 

[dougeee]

I would have to agree with Steve and Billy Goat on this one,especially if you have 1200 to spend.I was in your exact shoes not to long ago.I got a traditions 50 kit.Being a complete rookie at building,I did enjoy the minor inletting and fitting.The bottom line is I own a nice looking and reliable Traditions 50.I'm now looking at much nicer and more correct kits.Should have done that in the first place I guess.I've shot the Traditions maybe 50 times but I'm wearing the barrel out on my 62 smoothie that was built by a gunsmith that I got new for 750.No comparison to the workmanship and quality of parts.

 

[bwhoffman]

..after reading all these posts and various perspectives...
If it were ME...I would pick up a lower end kit, build it and try some of the various ideas that are out there, try a staining technique, tack the stock, carve, inlay some wire, pour a nose cap ect...
it would be a learning tool and also give you a better flavor for what you really want on your higher end gun.

Take a look at Scott's Lyman that he linked to... I've seen it first hand and the pics dont do it justice, it looks flatout gorgeous and looks like old school craftsmanship.

Brett

 

[bigbadben]

Thanks for all the input. I haven't checked to make sure I can buy black powder locally. But I know traditional muzzleloading is popular here, so I'm guessing it's available somewhere.

One of you guys mentioned a good point that being new to this I don't really know what I want. That is a concern. If I'm going to spend good money on a custom gun I'd hate to have it not be what I actually end up wanting. Maybe I think flintlocks are cool but end up not being willing to put up with the hassle? Who knows.

BTW -I was looking at the Austin & Halleck web site. The possibility of picking up one of their Mountain Guns for $300 is appealing. But I have also read the concerns about quality issues, and don't want to wind up with a dud. What's the consensus? If I spend $300 with them am I likely to end up with a quality gun? Also, once they are gone is this the kind of thing that most competent traditional gunsmiths could service?

Thanks,

Ben

 

[tg]

Most ML or living history forums have places where used guns can be purchased, if carefull and the home work is done you can get a redi-made gun for the price of parts or a bit more I got a Chambers Early Virginia smoothrilfe plus all the acces (value about $1400) for 800 bucks and it was all to notch many times someone will get out of the game of raise cash for a new project and offer a great deal, do use caution and check references with folks who know the seller and preferably know the gun,if the seller can provide none forget him, just another option.

 

[bigbadben]

BTW -I have another question about traditional muzzleloaders, kind of in keeping with the whole thing about being new to this. Can anyone give me the lowdown on to what extent lead slugs (conicals) are historically correct? I was thinking a 1/66 barrel so I could shoot patched balls knowing that they are certainly true to history. But what about lead slugs? Was anyone using these out of traditional muzzleloaders back in the early 18th century? Basically I want to have something that's a true replica of what people used then (so no plastic sabots). But if guys were hunting with lead slugs and getting better range and accuracy than with a patched ball that would still fit the bill -especially since I want to hunt with this thing. I just want to avoid anything that hinders the experience of shooting the way folks did 200 years ago.

Also, I may have misrepresented my budget a bit. I don't mind spending ~$1200, but would have to wait a few months before I could. I currently have a budget of ~$500. But there's a side of me that would kind of like to take the gun out in the woods this year. That would only happen with a ~$500 or less gun.

On that note I was looking at the Uberti Santa Fe Hawken. Does anyone have experience with them? Are they worth the $499? I've read some nice things about them. Does anyone know what the twist rate is?

Thanks,

Ben

 

[ssettle]

Buy a Lyman if you want to use it now. You can shoot roundballs and lead slugs out of it if you want. Lyman makes a good looking Great Plains Rifle. Plus you don't have to worry about scratching the finish or how you handle it while hunting.Later if you decide to sell it you shouldn't have a problem getting rid of it.. :thumbsup: SSettle

 

[Craig]

Have you looked at the links from the Forum to gun makers? There are a bunch of them and you can get an idea of what is available and prices.

Another idea, at TVM, Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading, I was going to get a Tulle musket.(not what you want, I know.) It was going to take about one year until the gun was ready and I had to pay the balance over the $100.00 downpayment. I could have used the time to save up what would have been a $1200.00 gun. (That was my point)Other manufacturers might have similar waiting times during which you could gather your money.

I did not buy it. I bought a Pedersoli .50 cal. Cub Dixie kit from Dixie Gun Works and put it together and I love shooting it. But I am not a hunter and I own 2 other flintlocks I use for reenacting (carrying around at Rendezvous).

Take your time. Look around and figure out what you want. Then enjoy! Don't worry about liking the flintlock. If you get a good gun, you will like it.

 

[bigbadben]

Thanks Rusty. I have to admit that I've thought about waiting times. I tend to shoot more in the summer (shooting in the winter is kinda grueling here), so I would definitely want to get a gun I could have by May/June. That may rule out the best customs. And no reason I can't move to something like that down the road.

Does anyone know of any shop in the northeast that stocks a lot of guns? I would kind of enjoy touching and picking out whatever I end up with.

Ben

 

[bigbadben]

So, maybe I should change the direction of this post. As I think about it I think I will get some good production gun that I can buy now and then wait a few years. Then if I still like this traditional muzzleloading game I can order a custom and be able to wait a year for it to show.

Now the question becomes what to get. I've indicated that I want something truely traditional, so no T/C's with modern sights, nothing designed to shoot plastic sabots. I don't want it tapped for scope mounts. And I don't want it to have a warning on the barrel about how dangerous firearms are. I guess I don't care about percussion vs. flintlock. I am thinking that I probably want to shoot patched balls, so it must be a slower twist. I want to hunt with it, so it should be no more than 50" long (prefereably a bit shorter).

But here are two things: First, I want something that's a bit unusual. So I kinda lean away from the Lymans as they seem too common. I don't know why, but having something a little different than all the other guys appeals to me.

Second: I want something that's good enough quality and accurate enough that I know whatever problems I experience are problems with me. A few years back when I started calling ducks I spend $130 on an RNT acrylic single-reed call. My theory was that I knew a good caller could make that thing sound great. So any problems were with me, not with the cheap call that I bought. I'd kind of like to do the same thing with this gun.

Let's say that I have a working budget of $600 for the gun itself ($700 if I'm drunk and see something I really like). Whadaya think?

Thanks,

Ben

 

[silverfox]

Get the Lyman and talk with aeronica it would be hard to get a nicer looking rifle even if it is the same brand others have. They won't have one that looks like that one.
Get a flint and learn to shoot it. I have several caplocks but the flint is the most fun. Still learning to shoot it did get a silver dollar 5 shot group at 100yds off bench may never do it again but once I'm sold the gun can do it even if I can't.
Went out today and every time I looked at the target there were 2 side by side like a laid down 8 guess thats bad but the smoke is still great.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[bigbadben]

Yeah, I did take another look at Aeronica's. And I have to admit that is a sweet looking gun. Is that typical of the kind of wood that they come with?

And as you say, the price is right -as is the fact that they come with a slower twist for patched ball.

Hmmmm . . . you may have started something here.

Ben

 

Before you make any decisions I would recommend going to www dot flintlocks dot com.
Jim Chambers makes a bunch of great kits.
I also recommend a kit that I saw at Conner Prairie that Mike Brooks is marketing. It's a brand new kit on the market called the F. Klette Virdinia Rifle. Mike had one of these put together and when I raised it up to shooting position I was amazed at the fine balance and instant sight picture with this rifle. You can PM Mike Brooks on this site as he is a member here.

If you start out with a kit like these that I have mentioned you will save money in the long run. These guys are putting out kits with the best locks and barrels that you can get. All American made too. :thumbsup:

 

[bigbadben]

Thanks. I've thought about kits. But I think I'm looking for something ready made. I learned a long time ago that I'm too impatient to be a fine woodworker. Plus I don't know anything about browning, blueing, inlaying, or any of the other arts that go into making a fine gun.

I could see myself buying a kit, screwing it up six ways to Sunday, throwing the whole thing in the trash and then buying a ready made gun anyway.

My hat's off to those who do their own custom work. I've seen some impressive stuff. But I'm not confident I could do it. A man's got to know his limitations . . .

Ben

 

[Stony]

OK, lets cut to the quick. Buy a Lyman Great Plains rifle in .54 flintlock. You'll have a well made rifle to learn how flintlocks work. It can take just about anything in the lower 48 states and is set with a 1 in 66 twist. Start saving your pennies and dimes. Get a mid-sized fishing tackle box to carry your stuff around while you wait to see what rifle you get so you can get the right shooting bag, powder horn and so on. Use a ketchep squeeze bottle for your powder. And don't take anything here too seriously, have fun.