Advice please....

[Little Wattsy]

So Im getting ready to jump off the deep end and start "pouring my own" RB are easy enough or so it would seem, But lets talk about conicals....
I REALLY like the Hornady Great PLains HBHP. It shoots / groups well and "preforms" incredably. So what mold do I get to duplicate THAT? And can you REALLY predict you'll have a good slug or do you find your self throwing away molds trying to find a conicle that shoots good outta yer gun?

Note: were talking a 26" greenmountian barrel w/ a 1 in 28 twist. .50cal Renegade.

HELP PLEASE :surrender:

 

[omarick1948]

I never have seen the reason to shoot anything but PRB in my 54! Plenty accurate for target and big North American sized game....JMHO

Rick

 

[Swampman]

"a 1 in 28 twist"

Is for shooting sabots.

 

[Little Wattsy]

Thanks but that does NOT awnser the question :shake: horner75: Its a .50 NOT a .54 so not relavent, sorry.

I have three barrels for my Renegade; A .54 1 in 48 will use PRB, a .50 1 in 48 for PRB also, and a .50 1 in 28 WILL use a conicle.
IF you have AWNSERS I would LOVE IT, I got the indocternation a few threads down already :wink:

 

[chapmans]

Wattsy,
If I were going to shoot conicals I would try some of what is already out there first like the T/C maxi balls and maxi hunters, Buffalo bullets and of course the different Great Plains bullets.
When you find something that you like you can contact Colorado Shooter Supply or Pioneer Products in Brookville OH ph 937- 833- 2865 and tell them what you need, if you send them a slug driven through the bore,to get the perfect diameter, they can make whatever mold you want and it should be right the first time.
Just remember shooting conicals is a whole new ballgame they produce higher pressures and burn out nipples in just a few shots, also they have alot more recoil, so if you only plan on hunting with it then you may just want to find out what's there and just buy ready made.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Not necessarily for you, Wattsy, but you can't overspin a round ball, as you can a conical. You can shoot PRB in a 1:28 ROT rifle barrel. It just will be a bit fussy about what powder charge you use, when trying to reach high velocities, and you will have to sort balls by weigh and diameter for best accuracy.

The longer, or " slower " rates of twist rifle barrel are designed specifically for shooting PRB, but there is little consensus on the Optimum Rate of Twist for any given caliber. I am shooting a 1:48 ROT barrel on my .50 caliber. But you can buy 1:60, 1:66, 1:72, and even barrels made with slower Rates of twist in the same caliber.

My brother just told me that a conversation he had with a long time barrel maker indicates that the maker believes you get best accuracy from a barrel by using a ROT equal to the length of the barrel, when shooting calibers under .40. He also thinks the bore diameter should also determine the barrel length, so you get 1 complete rotation of the ball in the barrel.(Ex. A .32 caliber rifle would be optimum with a 1:32 ROT, in a 32 inch length barrel.) For .40 and .45, He thinks you should multiple the diameter of the bore times 120 to get the optimum ROT. For calibers 50 and larger, use 150 to multiply times the caliber to get the best Rate of Twist.

I truly believe that this point will be argued by RB shooters for as long as RBs are being shot in front of Black Powder. I don't expect there to be any agreement, or definitive testing to prove one way or another what the Best ROT for a given caliber is, when shooting the PRB. When we old guys recommend using a slower ROT barrel for round balls, its only because the slower the ROT, the more forgiving the barrel is to slight changes in powder charges. This allows the shooter to measure powder by volume, with the least changes in POI.

When you get to .50 caliber and higher, we tend to recommend using FFg powder, rather than the faster FFFg powder for the same reasons. Actually, as the mass goes up with the diameter of the bore, and friction of a patch making more contact with the bore than in the smaller calibers, chamber pressure rises behind a PRB, and the powder charge is burned more efficiently, regardless of whether you use FFg or FFFg powder. Add OP Wads, and its difficult to tell the difference between the powders based on powder residue left in the barrel, and powder chamber. The only differences will be the velocity achieved with each powder, and the difference in POI on the target, out to 100 or so yards. After that, the difference in POI is so small that you can't hold iron sights well enough to take advantage of any " Paper " difference, at those long ranges.

If you have a good reason to be shooting conicals, then, By All Means, get a fast ROT barrel designed to shoot conicals, and have at it. TRADITIONALLY, when hunters were coming up against game that might fight back, they simply used a larger caliber gun that fired a heavier, LARGER-caliber Round ball.

No one was impressed with the Minie ball for killing large heavy skinned and boned, game back in the day, from the histories I have read. YOu get into the percussion era, and the 1840s, to find the first concerted effort to develop conicals that would deliver the goods on heavy game, in sporting rifles.

 

[Little Wattsy]

Wattsy,
If I were going to shoot conicals I would try some of what is already out there first like the T/C maxi balls and maxi hunters, Buffalo bullets and of course the different Great Plains bullets.
When you find something that you like you can contact Colorado Shooter Supply or Pioneer Products in Brookville OH ph 937- 833- 2865 and tell them what you need, if you send them a slug driven through the bore,to get the perfect diameter, they can make whatever mold you want and it should be right the first time.
.

THANK YOU, THAT was helpfull.

 

[Little Wattsy]

THANK YOU.

 

[Little Wattsy]

"a 1 in 28 twist"

Is for shooting sabots.

Sorry THAT does NOT help me find a mold. :haha: :haha:

By the way a 1 in 28 shoots PRB pretty good as well as conicals and I guess that YOU do OK with sabots too. Its ALL good. :wink:

 

[jtmattison]

To my knowledge there aren't moulds out there to duplicate the Hornady Great Plains Bullet in .50 cal. I have a Lyman minie mould for my .54 that makes a nice thick skirted/hollow base and pointed bullet that shoots great.
Try the T/C Maxi Ball with a felt wad. You might be just as impressed with their accuracy and you can find a mould for them easy.
Also the Lee REAL in 320 grain with a felt wad might shoot good for you. Lee moulds are inexpensive.

HD

 

[roundball]

"...they produce higher pressures and burn out nipples in just a few shots..."

I can't say that you have not experienced that personally of course.
But your statement reads like its an across the board absolute fact and I wanted to offer some balance:
I have never found that to be the case after shooting many Hornady GP bullets, and many, many TC Maxi-Hunters in TC barrels.

 

[Semisane]

I can't say that you have not experienced that personally of course. But your statement reads like its an across the board absolute fact and I wanted to offer some balance: I have never found that to be the case after shooting many Hornady GP bullets, and many, many TC Maxi-Hunters in TC barrels.

I was going to let that one pass, but since you commented I'll add my experience. I have probably 200 or more rounds of .410 Great Plains bullets out of my New Englander over 80 grains Pyrodex RS and still have the same nipple that I started with (on the gun, that is).

 

[nw_hunter]

My 54 Hawken likes the real bullets. Rebel and I cast them, and I would be glad to send you a few of them to see if your fast twist barrel likes them.The real molds work good for us and the price is right at about 20.00 for the single mold.
**********************************
OOps :cursing: You did say a mold to duplicate the GP bullet. Have to get back with ya on that one.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Wattsy, I have two 50 Cal 1-28 twist GM barrels. I was using the 410 gr Hornady and got 21 boxes before they stopped.
Here is my findings. I have tried a LOT of moulds. I tried the Lyman great plains. This mould didn't work well for my gun. I used them with and without over powder wads. The best I could get was about 5" groups at 100 yards.
Next I tried the LEE REAL bullets. They shoot good with lighter loads and over powder wads. I got got 4" groups at 100 yards with the 310 gr REAL. I also tried the RCBS North South bullets. This mould is a Adjustable mould. SO the first time I tried this mould I made?? 410 gr bullets. I could not hit the broad side of a barn.
I was about at a end. About that time I started to paper patch conicals. I first tried Paper patched bullets in my 45 then I decided to try the 50. I wrapped the Great plains bullets and they did a little better. I wrapped the North SOuth bullets and they did a little better.
HERE IS WHAT ROCKS!!!!!!!
I got a LEE 500 S&W mould number C-501-440-RF
This bullet is a Gas Check bullet. I DO NOT use a gas check! What I did was I paper patched this bullet.

This bullet as a pistol bullet is to weigh 440 grains with hard lead. As a ML bullet I make them out of pure virgin lead that is 5BHN. They weigh in at 456 grains and have a BC of .296 which is very close and I have shot a lot of them now.
Here are a few groups. here is one at 90 gr of Pyrodex P.

here is one at 80 gr.

What I have found is paper patching helps protect the bullet from the barrel and the barrel from leading. It is a very easy thing to do and the only stuff you need is a mould, a pattern for a 50 cal paper patch, and a .501 sizer die from LEE. The Lee mould costs under 20 dollars. The pattern from Midway is about 20 dollars or I could send you one made from cardboard for FREE!
The sizer die is way less than 20 dollars. Here is a 100 yard group.

I do NOT burn out nipples, that is a tail that keeps being told that is NOT true. I did use a over powder wad on these bullets. These bullets have been named (moose maulers) by my son. It is his rifle that I shoot them in right now. I am getting it ready when he gets a moose tag. While some guys here don't believe in foot pounds of energy, I do. This load hauls the mail. I am getting 1310 feet per second with 80 gr of Pyrodex P and a felt over powder wad.
this gives me over 1200 foot pounds of energy at 150 yards. This spring the wind has been bad. Most of the time when i shoot the wind is blowing. The last time I went I got 5" groups at 150 yards and 7" groups at 200 yards. These are shot with peep sights and like I said in the wind. I am sure that with a good calm day I should be able to cut those groups in half since the groups showed signs of wind drift.
My son is 13 and this is a 100 yard group with the moose maulers. I didn't measure the group but I think it was good for a kid and a peep sight.

I did go back and try the North South skirmish bullets again. This time I made them bigger. I made some 512 gr and 532 gr bullets. I paper patched them and this time they did great at 50 yards but I have not tried them at 100 yards.
This is the north south bullet.

this is a group.

I hope this helps. Ron

 

[chapmans]

Roundball,
I do know they burn out nipples very fast but maybe the average shooter just doesn't realize it, all you have to do is go to a long range muzzloading match and talk to the shooters and they will tell you how fast the nipples burn out, thats why they all use platinum lined nipples. If you don't measure the diameter of the hole when you start then you don't realize how much they burn out, and it probably won't hurt accuracy enough for hunting purposes. And yes I do have experience with this problem, I have built several bullet guns and rebarreled several more and every time the people start having accuracy problems I pull out the nipple and the hole is usually doubled in size and when they replace it their accuracy comes right back.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Longball58: Thank you for the comment about nipples. I do not shoot conicals, and have never had a percussion rifle that was designed to shoot them. I do have the parts for a hawken style rifle that will shoot conicals, and if I ever get that gun made, I may try conicals out.

However, I have talked to and known long range shooters for many years, and all tell the same story about nipples that you share with the members here. I know the men at my gun club thought I was odd to buy a wire gauge to test the diameter of nipples when I got my first percussion rifle. But, I used it to investigate their deteriorating accuracy in their own rifles several times, to tell them that the inside of the nipple had worn out. In one case, I had an extra nipple in my range box that I could sell the club members. His accuracy immediately return. Becuase the replacement nipple was stainless steel, and not high carbon steel, the nipple lasted much longer than his factory provided original nipple. This was before the SureShot, and the HotShot nipples became available.

I advise shooters who basically shoot RB for all their practice and club shoots, and only shoot conicals during hunting season that they don't need to buy the very expensive platinum lined nipples. They can make due with the stainless steel ones, but just buy two of them, and keep one in a safe place if they need a replacement before they can get back to a supplier. I was paying $1.25 each for SS nipples back when I last bought them. I suspect they are $2.00 or more now. I have not seen the Hotshot, or Sureshot nipples for sale, away from Commercial Row at Friendship in many years, so I don't know current prices. However, considering how vital a good nipple is for percussion rifle accuracy, it only makes sense to buy good ones, and have an extra on hand, just in case. Wire gauges are also not that expensive, and will last you two lifetimes, or more. I keep a wire in my range box to clean out the nipples when crud gets stuck in them. I have used that wire to clean other shooter's nipples more often than my own, but its one of those tools you are surely glad to have when you need it. It doesn't take up much space. I also have wires in my nipple wrench, made by T/C, and in my flint tool made by The Hawken Shop, but available from most suppliers. I only used the wire on my flint tool once, to help a percussion shooter, not my flintlock, but the T/C has been used several times for other shooters, and once for my own clearing problem. When I pulled it out of my nipple wrench, the guys around me were surprised. They had similar wrenches, but had never unscrewed the cap on the bottom to discover they also had a wire in their tools. How about that! :grin: :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Idaho Ron]

When we are talking about washing out nipples this is what I know from shooting my guns. My 50's shooting 410 gr bullets or smaller don't have a problem. Now my 45 is another story. Large bullets and powder charges over about 60 gr will cock the hammer. And yes they do go through nipples but not as fast as a few shots. I change nipples out twice a year on each gun and I shoot a lot. A guy does not need a 60 dollar nipple on a hunting rifle to get sub 1" groups out to 100 yards. Ron

 

[sidelock]

I have fired prob 2ooo rounds, PRB and Maxi mixed through my TC .50 with a mix of weights of FFG real black depending on the target (say game) and bullet config. I acquired 3 SS nipples some time about 1975, and One is still unused and the others ain't shot out yet. How do you shoot em out???? :surrender:

 

[Idaho Ron]

When a guy loads heavy charges and BIG bullets the pressures go up. This will cause gas to vent through the nipple. Most of the time you will see the hammer cock on these big loads. When that happens you most certainly are going to get some erosion in the nipple. Ron

 

[BrownBear]

Check out Lyman mold #508656. It turns out a 395 grain bullet that's about as close to the Great Plains as you can get. I shoot the 54 cal version, and I can't tell the difference on paper or on game. The Lyman site is here. In my experience it shoots best with a lubed felt wad under it. No, it's not HPHB, but it matches up in all the other important ways.